131 - Camino Talk Show - Featuring Johnnie Walker, Shoshana Kerewsky, and Rebecca Martinez

A new talk show format! Join our conversation as we discuss various Camino topics to help in planning your first walk or to reminisce about your own pilgrim experiences. We open with on‑the‑ground news from Santiago: fierce winter storms, a rare snowfall, and a temporary closure at Santiago’s airport that will reroute some spring arrivals. We separate fact from rumor around a potential papal visit, and even share a peek at a Netflix production setting up a medieval market near the cathedral. Context matters—understanding timing, transport, and crowds helps you walk with more ease and fewer surprises.

From there, we dive into the questions every pilgrim wrestles with. Should you book ahead or keep your plans loose? Our panel compares stress levels, seasonal crowds, budget realities, and friendship dynamics, then offers a hybrid approach that preserves spontaneity while safeguarding rest. We also unpack the solo question with honest care: why walking alone can be empowering, how to set clear boundaries when a friend asks to join, and practical safety moves like checking in at cafes, choosing more populated routes, and carrying simple tools that boost confidence.

We also say the quiet part out loud: bio breaks and trail etiquette. Hydrate smart, use cafe bathrooms respectfully, carry out your toilet paper, and skip foot care at the table. You’ll learn the kit that prevents blisters—toe socks, midday sock changes, and walking your own pace—and the micro‑habits that keep you injury‑free when the crowd moves faster than your body wants. And because a Camino isn’t just kilometers, we celebrate small delights: a cold stream that resets swollen feet, a shady tree nap that restores patience, or a dawn birdwatch with Merlin that opens a new window into Spain’s landscape.

We close with ways to give back, from hospitalero training and albergue service to local food pantries and trail cleanups. Whether you’re mapping your first steps or returning for your sixth route, this conversation offers grounded advice, real‑world examples, and the gentle nudge to make choices that match your season of life. If this resonated, follow the show, share it with a pilgrim friend, and leave a quick review—what’s your top Camino tip for new walkers?

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Guest Introductions
• 4:56 Winter News From Santiago
• 8:29 The Great Booking Debate
• 22:57 Walking Solo Or With Others
• 35:14 Boundaries For A Planned Solo Camino
• 42:02 Bio Breaks, Hygiene, And Trail Etiquette
• 56:01 First‑Timer Tips That Prevent Pain
• 1:00:08 Off‑Trail Joys And Mindful Pauses
• 1:08:18 Volunteering And Giving Back

Transcript

Leigh: 0:13

Welcome to the Camino Cafe, Camino Chat, a new show where I hope to get together pilgrims to do what pilgrims love to do most aside from walking, and that is talking about the Camino. I'm Lee Brennan, your host. I walked my first Camino in 2019. And since then, I don't know how many other Caminos I've walked or portions of Camino. I love the Camino and I've been doing a podcast. I looked this morning to see how long it's been since 2020. So I guess I enjoy doing podcasting too. So today at our table, we have with us, I'll let them introduce themselves. So who do we have here with us today?

Shoshana: 0:53

Hi, I'm Shoshana Karevsky. I live in the Pacific Northwest. And uh besides the Camino, I like to walk and I like to write. So kind of Camino-y. Um, and I have I like to travel, but I have some new kittens. So I am paying attention to the new kittens right now. Um and gosh, I'm planning my sixth Camino and a women's writing retreat that I'm very excited about with uh novelist Alder Allensworth. And we're running an ongoing Camino writing support group on Facebook. Um so I have two Camino uh uh inclusive memoirs, I'll say. One is a little more Camino focused, one is more kind of life focused. And I'm finishing up a novel that has some Camino elements that takes place in a kind of, um, I'll call it an alternative history with some other elements, including religion and fantasy. So it's kind of hard to know where they're gonna put it on a bookshelf. Uh, but I'm getting ready to have that and getting uh all done and getting ready to attend uh and lead a writing workshop at the American Pilgrims on the Camino gathering coming up in Hunt, Texas. Happy to be here.

Leigh: 2:08

Yeah, happy to have you. All right, and our next guest at the Camino table.

Rebecca: 2:14

Hi everyone, I am Rebecca Martinez from Southern California. I also go by Becky. Um, so when I'm not Caminoing, well, I'm a former professor, um, I am a cultural anthropologist and also a writer. So we have that in common. Um and when I'm not on the Camino for personal enjoyment, I'm um doing Camino for my business. I just started a small Camino business called Camino Scholars, and I take people and show them my my Galicia, my Camino, because I lived in um in Galicia back in 2004, and it's a while ago, um, when the kids were little. Um, three kids, uh two years apart, uh ages 15 months to five, and I was yeah, living in Galicia. So um that uh you know, so Galicia has a a big place in my heart, you know. My formative years of my kids were spent there. And so um I have a personal connection to the writer, uh Ramon de Bainclán, who you if you've been to Pontevedra or Parque Alameda, um Vila Nova de Arça, on my favorite part of the Portuguese, um, then you've seen his statues. Um so ultimately I would actually I'm like to uh fund a nonprofit and take college students on Camino as a former professor, ones who wouldn't um otherwise be able to do the camino and introduce them to this beautiful, beautiful walk um that is so meaningful to me. Um uh other things that I do, well, uh I co-created with another pilgrim friend, um, Trisha Mandel, uh Camino de Santiago Um Women 50 Plus All Roots, a Facebook group. We are now um at 85,000 members and we're only two years old. Um and it's the bit it's the sister group to the big all roots group, which um is I think close to half a million people now, that group that um Derek and Darren and Johnny run. Um and so I moderate that group as well. So I spend way too much time online, basically. That's my story. Um, but be here chatting with y'all.

Leigh: 4:36

Well, great. Well, I think everyone can see by those introductions that we have great panelists to be our first guests here on the show. And we first are gonna have a little bit of a news update from Johnny Walker, I think the pilgrim that needs no introduction. He's gonna give us the news from Santiago, from the Camino, and from Spain overall. So he is coming to us today by video because he is traveling. So let's take a look at the news right now.

Johnnie: 5:01

Hello, Lee. Hello, everyone. This is John in a very rainy Santiago at the end of January 2026. As you know, in the wintertime I go south, but it's raining down there as well, and I've come back to Santiago for a few days, and the weather's terrible and everyone's wrapped up. You know, here in January, so far in January, 2,000 pilgrims have arrived and received the Copper Cellar. They've had to battle through rain, hail, sleet, and snow all over the Camino. The weather generally in Spain has been very difficult at this time of the year. And so numbers are a bit down, but I'm sure compared to last year, but I'm sure they will come back up again. Storm Joseph brought snow to Santiago, which is historic. It's 15 years ago than the last time I remember snow being here in Santiago. And the other day there was a storm here in Galicia, which they said was the worst ever. So think of these poor pilgrims. If you're working in winter time, be well prepared and realize what you're doing. And I'm looking forward this year. There are other problems besetting people travelling to Galicia. Santiago's airport is closed for I think for 35 days from April the 23rd until May the 27th. So plan accordingly. And then there are other airports in Vigo, a couple of hours away by train, and in Carunia, an hour, half an hour to an hour away by train as well. So, and then of course, there are all those high-speed trains to Madrid and so forth. Looking forward, some commentators have been saying the Pope's coming to Santiago during 2026, and this is a rumour that swept social media, and some people are still repeating it. But let me assure you that the Archbishop of Santiago, because the Pope is not coming in 2026, has been to Rome, had an audience with the Pope, and has requested that the Pope consider visiting Santiago in the Holy Year 2027. So he's not coming this year. Everybody hopes he might come during the holy year next year, but nothing is yet confirmed. So ignore the rumors, and numbers will be high enough here in Santiago this year without the Pope coming. But if he comes next year, then numbers will soar. There's no doubt about that. Now, things to look forward to. The other day, filming in the Plata Platarius, that's the that's the one with the entrance to the cathedral where the silversmiths used to have their workshops. In the Plata Platarius, Netflix were filming a brand new series called Lobo. Now, the the date of the date of uh broadcast is not yet confirmed, but they have they set up a medieval market, a facsimile of a medieval market in the Plata Plateriaus and filmed away. Uh so we have that to look forward to. Now, if you're planning a Camino this year, Camino. If you're if you're not, if you're an Arabs pilgrim like me this year, then enjoy your memories of a Camino or Caminos to look forward to. Thank you very much. All the best, everyone.

Leigh: 8:29

Thanks, Johnny, for that great report. And we are happy to hear about all the things going on in Spain. Next up, um, I'm taking some hot topic questions that were in the Facebook group that Rebecca mentioned earlier, Camino de Santiago, 50 plus women all routes group. And uh, as she said, there's over 80 what, over 85,000 women in this group, and it's only two years old, and it's a great resource for everyone. And I thought it would be fun to bring panelists together to kind of just talk about some of the questions, kind of offer our viewpoints. All of us have walked a lot. Again, these are just our thoughts, these are our opinions, right? Doesn't mean that we're right or wrong. Sometimes you just got to try it for yourself. But this is information from people that have walked, and we'll talk about it. So uh one of the questions that had a lot of comments about it uh and some interest was booking. Uh, do you guys book ahead? And if you do, how do you do your bookings? Who wants to go first, Rebecca?

Rebecca: 9:28

Um, I uh I do book. Um now I my thought is that because I do get tend to get anxious, um, I think it just depends on the person, really, because I know myself and I know that I would be on Camino not enjoying the the Camino. I would be worried about where am I gonna sleep? Is there gonna be a room? Is it and you know I try my best not to do that, but it happens. So I do book. However, I will be doing uh the full Camino Frances uh end of September to October and um uh with my partner and we have decided that we will book a little in the beginning and then see what happens. So wish me luck. I've uh it's something I've wanted to try doing, and um and besides, I can't imagine booking the whole frances. I think it would be way too much. Um uh uh bless anyone who's done that. Um I I hear you, but I that's you know, we're I'm gonna try it something different. So I'm gonna compare, right? I'm open to to both perspectives. Um, and I think whatever works for you, there's no morality police about this. Um, whatever, if you know you know yourself better than other people know you. And if you want to try maybe both, even in the same camino, do that, you know. Um and if that doesn't appeal to appeal to you, don't do that. Um, I've had instances where my first Camino I did um book, however, it was flexible. So I had met another pilgrim, and uh, she was ahead of me in the end because I was walking slower, and she said, Oh, you should really stay at the monastery in Poyo. And um it's really great. And I hadn't planned on it, and I changed it and I stayed there, and I had one of the most beautiful experiences of all my caminos at that monastery. So it works out, you know. Yeah, yeah.

Leigh: 11:28

I totally agree with you. Uh Shasai, let's get your perspective and then I'll I'll add mine too.

Shoshana: 11:33

Great. Um, I think it's both and um to me, the question really is um not even just for the person, but for you particularly on this Camino that you're doing at this time in your life. What is going to give you the best pilgrimage experience? Um, because for some people, it's not possible if they don't book ahead. Um, for other people, part of what makes it pilgrimy is not to book ahead. Uh, and I, you know, I don't feel like I can be the arbiter of people's experience in in that way. I've done it both ways. Um, I've done it both ways on the francaise. Um I did on my first Camino, uh uh I got to boy, I don't even remember where, but I was I was about a week out from uh Santiago de Compostela, and there was nothing. And there was nothing. There was really nothing. And I had, you know, I was at French hotels, you know, that are not that were not on the list I had, you know, begging for a room or to sleep on the floor. And they were saying, oh, je suis désolé. Uh, you know, they were very sad for me, but there was nothing, and there was nothing within uh, you know, 10 kilometers. And at that point, when I finally got a uh a horrible little room for which I was extremely grateful, it was very expensive, broke my budget on a um, got on an air shaft and it smelled terrible, and my boots smelled like manure. It was it was all just awful. And I thought, uh, I am now going to book the next several days into Santiago to Compostella because that was alarming. Um, and whatever it was that the Camino was providing, uh it was not providing what I needed at that time. And you could argue that I might learn a lesson in that way, and I probably would. Um, but I was in pain and I was uncomfortable, and I was a uh a woman with uh health issues. Uh, and it was the middle of the night in Spain, and I needed a room. And so I needed the Camino to know that I was gonna uh get out my credit card and I was gonna provide myself with some rooms. Um, you know, that said, I would really love to walk uh maybe in one of the more off-season months. Um, but I'm here to tell you this was not shoulder season. This was this was that horrible hot heat wave July, August of 2019. It was about 105 degrees Fahrenheit in some of the, you know, at night at some of the places I was staying. And uh and everything was just completely full. So I think, I think it depends a lot. If if I were gonna walk it in, I don't know, in April, I think there's a better chance of being able to get a room. If I were gonna walk the inglés, I didn't see a lot of trouble getting rooms there or the Portuguese. But I really think it has to be circumstantial. You have to account for your own context.

Leigh: 14:48

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. I've had um, and well said, by the way, Shajan, I liked a lot of the comments. Um, you know, I think I can remember back once on the Camino Frances, I had booked ahead quite a bit. And, you know, because I I'm also I get very nervous and I want to know where I'm gonna sleep, and then I can just relax on my walk. But then I ended up making a bunch of friends and they were all staying at different places, sometimes different villages even. And so I felt like, oh, I wish I hadn't done that. So I feel like now, um, you know, if it's a longer Camino, I tend to only want to book a few days ahead. But I totally agree with the um situation where the time of the year, you know, if you are walking at the busiest time, let's say September and October, the closer you get to Santiago, I think the chances are that it might be a little more crowded. You know, I think in the middle of, you know, way out before Leon or Burgos, probably don't have to be as worried because, you know, the Camino tends to get busier, right, as the route gets closer. Um, so I think that comes into perspective. And then also I think what you said, Shoshana, about uh where you are in life, you know, and what's going on with you and to listen to yourself. But I totally believe, and I was talking to a group of pilgrims uh yesterday who were getting ready to walk their first Camino, and they were rightly so, because I was very nervous too before my first one about trying to book. But I feel very confident now on booking.com or you know, finding my place. I know what town I'm probably gonna stay in, and then you know, three days out I can book ahead. I think it's become so much easier than what it was, say 10 years ago, to book ahead. I don't, is that your guys' perspective as well, that it's easier now?

Rebecca: 16:33

I I well, um, because I've done some Caminos a couple of times, I have now contact information for the places that I like to stay. So I will contact people on WhatsApp. Um, however, because I also book so much on booking, I'm at like the genius level three, whatever. And um, and I can get some good discounts on there. And and I found that sometimes it's cheaper through booking than even going the direct route with the with the same people because I have some perks. So it's not always um cheaper going uh directly with with the um the hotel or um albergue, private albergue. Um it just depends and um you should check out both. Um, but there are um lots of good resources on um Granzi and on all of all of these Facebook pages where you can have uh direct contact with um the owners of these um albergues and you can contact them directly as well. So try both things, I would say.

Leigh: 17:43

Yeah. And then I would just offer up too, you know, try a variety of places to stay. I mean, yeah, believe me, I love my bougie hotel every once in a while, but also there's something to be said for staying at a place with bunk beds, right? It's a whole different experience. Um, and you know, maybe not every Camino you want to do that, or you know, it's kind of nice to have a variety, right? To kind of uh stay maybe at more simple places in the beginning or in the bunk beds. And then maybe, you know, when you're really feeling tired, you want a place, you know, where you have your own bathtub if you're lucky enough to find that kind of place. Um so yeah, okay. Well, let's move on. Um, so uh we had somebody that mentioned that a friend had canceled. They were getting ready to walk, and then the friend canceled. And I think the question was kind of like, do I want to walk now by myself? And so um, with the three of us, uh, having walked uh probably a variety of Caminos by ourselves and with others, what would you say to this person if you were at the cafe talking to them?

Rebecca: 18:44

Becky, you want to take that? No, you take that because I was lead on the other one. So I want to.

Shoshana: 18:49

All right, well, that's what you say on this too. That seems delightfully equitable.

unknown: 18:52

Thank you.

Shoshana: 18:54

Um I have uh really only walked by myself. Um I had a friend on my very first Camino. She came in and um joined me in gosh, where did she join me? She joined me in Astorga, I think, and she only had basically four and a half days on the ground. Uh she was a friend I'd walked with a little bit in France when we were younger. Um, and that was nice. Uh, and I certainly hook up with people, but most of the time I'm I plan to do it on my own. I'm doing it on my own. Um, I now have friends in Spain, so I sometimes make a plan to meet somebody for a meal or to meet somebody in Santiago. Um, I went to a uh retreat at Flores del Camino that was led by the wonderful uh Bibi Barami and uh and then the fine folks of Flores. Uh, it was sacred art and writing, and it's very enjoyable. And so I met some people there and spent time with them. And now, whenever we are in Spain together. And we're we see an event coming up like gee, Dan Mullen's uh film is premiering, and actually he's gonna have it at this uh theater in Santiago for two nights. Uh, you know, then there are people that I hook up with, but uh I never make plans to walk with someone else. I've I've invited people, I'm open to it. But my advice would be if you feel like you want the experience of what it's like to walk alone, knowing that if you become uncomfortable, you can get onto, say, comigas or the 50 plus women or any of the other groups and say, is there someone who is willing to walk with me? Uh, you know, you come to the woods and you wait at the edge of the woods and you say to the nice person with the headlamp, may I walk through the woods with you? I don't feel comfortable in there. Uh, I think that's I think that's great. I think you have to be um what challenge your challenge yourself, but don't challenge yourself so much that it's going to be uh really uncomfortable or frightening or make you uh worried. Uh and I think especially with people, often with multiple uh people reporting the same uh say issue with somebody hassling them on most recently on the Portuguese, um, you want to pay attention to that, but you also don't want to let people scare you out of having your experience. I love walking on my own. I have tremendous conversations with people in many languages, including only gestures and you know, clinked tinto. And I am all for it. So I think if you can do it at all, just go for it. Excellent. Rebecca, you have anything you want to add to that?

Rebecca: 21:44

Yeah, I've I've done it both. My very first Camino, um, I literally dropped the youngest off at college in the New York area and took a plane from New York to Porto. Um that was, you know, I had it been something I'd been wanting to do. And um, and I I was frightened, but um just because, and this is gonna sound hilarious for someone who is uh guiding people now, my sense of direction is not the greatest. So, but this is what I do. I throw myself into something where um I'm gonna challenge myself, right? And um I'm gonna conquer it, you know, full force if I can. So um I chose the Portuguese, um, the litoral, because I said, well, at least I'll know the oceans on my left side. Literally said that to myself, I can't get lost. Well, except for when you're walking through Vigo, right? Because there the signage, I was lost for um a good hour trying to get into Vigo. I've I've learned it now, but um, you know, hey, it happens. Um, so and then I invited my husband to come along and um do a couple different Caminos with me, and he's been he's been doing them. Um, and we have a great time too. Some people say, well, um, I've heard this where like if I walk alone, I meet more people, but if I'm walking with a friend or a partner, then I don't meet people. That, yeah, I I can see that. However, my husband is also very extroverted, so we happen to attract groups. So we had these really big groups of people. I remember one time I put together a dinner um and it uh on the Primitivo in a place that I already knew. And um 20 20 pilgrims came, you know, to this to this dinner, and it was fabulous. And then we had an uh anniversary dinner on the Camino and um um grandes de Salime, I think it was, and um we invited all the pilgrims that we had met and bought them some champagne to have a toast on our anniversary. So um, you know, we've had those kind of experiences with each other, and I've had great experiences walking alone. And I would tell someone to um uh as Shoshana was saying, you know, do some things that can mitigate those fears. Um, maybe like me, you want to do a Camino where you, you know, you think, hey, I have uh less of a chance of getting lost because I'm doing it this way. Or um, but don't let it stop you um because there are ways to mitigate. And um, you know, again, we were talking you were talking about those incidents that happened on the Camino Porto Gas. Well, I was walking with my husband, um, and we heard a personal alarm go off, like one of those birdies. And then um uh we saw a woman, we couldn't catch, she just ran right past us, and um, it turns out that somebody had exposed themselves to her, and um, we heard the story later, but she was able to find pilgrims to walk with, and um, she continued her her walk. Um, so you know, there are these possibilities, but you can do things to prepare. I mean, I carry a whistle, or actually, it's built into my backpack. Um I um am trying to look for at my environment around me. And again, as women, unfortunately, this is nothing new to us. This happens to us in all environments. Um, so it's part of you know, living life in a certain body. And um and the Camino is tranquil. I feel most tranquil on the Camino. Um so it's not that, but you know, just having information is helpful, you know. I I don't like that people suppress these stories because we don't want to hear anything negative about the Camino, because it's just information, you know. I I don't see anything wrong with having information and um being able to plan with that information. We should all have access to that. Um doesn't stop me. I will continue to walk solo. I I love my alone time and being in nature, I find it so healing. Um, it's a spiritual experience for me. And um yeah, that's exactly what I would what I would say.

Leigh: 26:19

Yeah. Wow, well said by both of you. Um yeah, I I think at my perspective, I you know, I always think about when I'm trying to decide if I'm gonna walk with someone or not, you know, if I'm walking the Camino Frances, I say you never walk alone. I feel like there's always somebody right ahead of me, always somebody usually behind me. Um, if I'm having a day where maybe I feel a little more nervous or something, you know, I'm just more aware. And maybe when I talk to people at the coffee shop, I make sure that I meet them and I know they're either kind of behind me or in front of me. And that just always kind of relaxes me. You know, I have to say um I feel safer in Spain walking than I do in the US. Um, but yet I'm always still aware, you know, and I do like having my poles with me and you know, my whistle and all those things. So I think that is very important. I find that I tend to prefer to walk by myself because there have been times when I've walked um with people and it seems like we talk so much that, you know, the day can end and I think, did we even walk the Camino today? Where, you know, we talked so much and you know, I'm very extroverted, so that's easy for me to have happen. Um, and so I do think that if you're walking with somebody else, um, if you're not extroverted, you may have to kind of go against your grain to meet other people at cafes. Or if you are walking with another person or with a group and you see somebody at a cafe sitting alone, they might enjoy being able to come and sit with you. So there's opportunities to kind of be more extroverted or be more introverted. When I walked with my dad on the Portuguese, I was laughing at Rebecca because he's more extroverted than I am. And we would every day end up with a group, you know, and he finally one day told me, Can you please stop talking to other people? Because like we just keep meeting so many people and our lunches are getting so big. So we've laughed about that for a lot, uh, a lot of time. But, you know, on the flip side, there was another comment where somebody was looking forward to walking alone. And then somebody else said, Ah, but I want to go with you. And to put this person in a tough situation to say, What do I do? I wanted to walk by myself. So, what would you tell someone who's been planning this solo walk? Now they've got a best friend, a spouse, or you know, an older uh child or whatever that wants to walk with them and but they don't want to do it, what would you tell them? How would you feel it?

Rebecca: 28:41

I I would say clarity is kindness. And um I would say because um this is you know something that I had been planning and planning to do alone, I think that as human beings, resentment might build um if if if we don't say anything and we just agree to do this, and we don't want to feel that way towards our friend or our partner or anybody in our lives. So to be um straightforward with them and to say, um, if you want in the future, and that's even if you want to, um, because just because somebody's your friend, it doesn't mean that they are also a good walking partner either. So, you know, I ran into uh people who walked with somebody they knew and then ended up not walking with that person or another young woman who she said she was walking with her mom. I said, So where's your mom? She's like, I don't know. We got into a fight and we split up. So um, so I think that that is the best thing to do is to just be clear about what you want to get out of it and to offer to help that person um plan their own camino, or if you want to walk with them after you're doing after you've done your Camino, um, that's an option. But I would say do not change your plans if you had been looking forward to that and and to to having that experience. And for women, it can be especially meaningful, right? Because um, you know, maybe we're at a time in our lives where we get to be independent for for once, you know, maybe um the kids are off to college, the pet died, and you're, you know, you can you can travel. Um and to give that up, um it does a disservice to yourself, it does a disservice to your friend or whoever wanted to come with you at the last moment because mind you, this has been in your mind for a while now, and then you're thrown for um, you know, something unexpected at you. So I I think ultimately being clear and open and and kind in response um will do everyone um best at the end.

Shoshana: 30:56

Yes, yes. That I want to I think go ahead, Lee. Sorry. Oh no, go ahead. I I think that's that's really great advice, and particularly the piece about clarity, which I think can be something also that we've been socialized uh not to do, or to think it's not legitimate to say I'm I'm taking that time for myself. Um, I've set intentions for myself uh that are about walking on my own and meeting different people. And it's very sweet sweet that you want to do this or that you want to do this with me. And let's figure out how we can do that so that it's satisfying for both of us because if I want to do this on my own, you want to come with me. I've known some couples, for example, where both of them have walked and they haven't walked together. They've staggered it by a day, or they've done different routes, or um, you know, one of them can't walk as far. And we see that a lot, right, on on Facebook and in discussions. I can't do, I can't walk 20 kilometers, or you are you are my beloved who is six foot seven and I am five foot two. Go on ahead in the morning, and I will be looking for you at the next town that's just one road through on the Camino, and you'll be there drinking beer. And you know, maybe here's where we're gonna meet up tonight. Um, or maybe um I'm going to do my walk and then about halfway through, I would like to take a week with you. Would you fly over at that point? And we will meet in Astorga or Leon or Bergos or somewhere interesting. Um and uh gosh, bring bring me a duffel bag with shiny new clothes that I've already set up, and I will trade you out. Uh, and we can stay there and rest, or we can jump on a bus or a train or take a taxi. It's not that far, you know, when you're in a moving vehicle, and we can go somewhere that I thought was really cool that you would like to enjoy, or meet me at the end, maybe not as I arrive in Santiago, but the next day or later that evening or something, you know, whatever's gonna work for you. But I think there are ways to be creative about it. And I think it's worth a conversation about is this something you want to do, or are you saying you want to do it because you are worried about me doing it on my own, which is a different thing and a different conversation.

Leigh: 33:34

Oh, yeah, great points. That's a great point. Yeah, yeah, I love the idea about the creativity. And, you know, I also think about, you know, the different routes. Um, you know, like I said, Camino Frances, there are a lot of people on it. But when I walk the Camino Salvador, it's much more remote. And on that one, I did feel like, you know, I think I I do want to walk with someone. Um and and I'm glad that I did on that particular route. On the Camino Frances, I like to have a little more uh solitude. And I wanted to add too that, you know, what both of you are kind of saying, I think you also can do it by a day-by-day basis, because let's just say that you do plan to go with another person. I think it's always good to kind of talk at breakfast, like, okay, here's how the day, you know, we're thinking it's gonna go. I really like to meditate and pray at the beginning of my Camino morning. Um let's after breakfast, we can take off at the same time. But if we end up being far apart or let's be quiet for the first couple of hours of the day, or you know, there's just so many the creativity available is only limited by our own imagination, you know. And I think there's so many ways that we can still get out of the camino what we want. Um, but going back to what you said, Rebecca, I think um setting those boundaries is really the kind thing to do for both or all interested parties, right? And um, I love all of that. Good stuff. All right, let's do one last question. Okay, this one got a lot of comments. I I I have a lot of thoughts on it. Okay, so when you gotta go, when you have a a need for a bio break and there's no village coming up in time, do you pee behind the bushes, right? And you know, how how do you handle that kind of situation? So just be curious what you two would say about that.

Rebecca: 35:22

When you gotta go, you gotta go. I was on the Portuguese walking of all things, um, with a with a man who I'd met, uh, this charming older man. Uh, I forget where he's from now. Oh goodness. Um, and anyway, so um I had him be my lookout a little bit because I, you know, and the Portuguese, there's plenty of opportunity, but I don't know. It just I drank a lot of coffee or what, I don't know. So I had to go. And um I you know just make sure that you whatever you uh carry in, you carry out. Take a plastic baggie or a doggy bag. Do not bury the toilet paper even. Make sure you take it out. Um, uh, that's the rule. You just um leave it as you found it and um don't don't be uncomfortable because you have to go. It's not good for your body, it's not going to be good for you as you're walking. Um and you know, but just carry everything out.

Leigh: 36:30

Yeah, agree. Shashana, anything you would add to that?

Shoshana: 36:35

Yeah, Ziploc bags are your friends. Um, if you really can't stand the idea of being mortified by somebody seeing that you have some, you know, baggie in your back on the in the in the pocket of your backpack that has toilet paper in it, uh, you can buy opaque Ziploc bags online and take a few of those with you. Um I think it's worth it's worth doing some preparatory work. Um now I'm gonna sound like a cognitive behavioral psychologist because that's what I was. Uh uh document right before you go, get get intentional, get mindful about it, have a little uh have a little tally sheet and and actually note down how much of uh am I drinking, when am I drinking, um, how frequently am I needing to use a toilet? Uh and uh, you know, it does anything make a difference, like whether it's hot or cold, or whether I'm walking or not walking, so that you have some sense of what you're getting yourself into before you even go on the Camino. I think that can be very useful. Um I see people recommend cool cloths. That doesn't do it for me. I don't, that's a that's uh basically something that you can wipe with, and people are like, oh, I hang it off my backpack. I say, more power to you, sister. I am not doing that. I have a really acute sense of smell. I just don't want to do that. It's not how I am in the world. I come from a non-camping family. We did not hike in the woods. Um, I will go behind a bush if I need to, but let me sing the praises of uh female urinary devices. Um, and I have one. I got it when I was taking undergraduates to a uh work study in a little bate, a little village in the Dominican Republic. We were going to be doing construction for a week. And I thought, I am a lady of a certain age, and we are gonna be out in a field, and there are just not toilets out there building stuff. And so I got a I got a little female urinary device, which is basically something that you pee into that channels uh your urine so that you don't have to drop your pants all the way. Um, because I didn't feel like doing that in the middle of another country in a field where there weren't there wasn't shrubbery. Um and I was really glad I had it. And it was a great conversation topic with all of the guys on the construction crew. They found this just fascinating. Uh, the women were very interested, and that can uh that can be helpful if you just don't feel comfortable going behind the bush and squatting. Um, that said, I'm really careful about um and I didn't used to be. You I think you gotta go use the toilet when you think of it. Just as you need to drink water on the Camino or any hike when you think of it. Use the toilet. Um, don't be saying to yourself, oh, well, I'm still walking. I don't wanna slow down. Oh, there's look at that bar, there's a line for coffee, there's a line for the toilet. I can't possibly spare 15 or 20 minutes uh out of my whole day because I've got to race. To the albergue to, you know, throw my backpack down in the line and get a bunk bed. Uh, I really think you got to stop and pee. Even if you don't think you do, you'll probably be glad when you're out in the middle of a field somewhere and you think, I have urinary shyness and I just can't do this, and there is no bush to hide behind, and I don't know what to do.

Rebecca: 40:20

Yeah. On the other end, too, I um I've known when I uh go hiking um just locally, um I've hiked with people and uh and some say, well, I don't want to drink any water because I don't want to have to pee. So I don't recommend that either. Um, you uh it's it can be dangerous. You want to make sure that you are hydrated. And so um I do not uh think that that is a good idea to to dehydrate yourself. Um see water. Um yeah, yeah. So be mindful of that too.

Leigh: 41:01

Um usually if you know if I'm in a village and there is a cafe to stop in, I'm getting something to drink just to have something extra to drink and making sure that I go to the bathroom. You know, I think about all of our caregivers, you know, always saying, Did you did you go before you leave the house? You know, like I think this is, you know, you should not miss that opportunity when it's available.

Shoshana: 41:21

I think well, and I want to jump in, Lee, and say when you're using the toilet, you're using their water at a bar, say, you're using their electricity, you're using their paper, uh, buy you you yeah, I I really think the the most uh ethical thing to do is to buy something else to drink. It benefits you and it benefits them and the good people of Aquarius.

Leigh: 41:44

Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. If you're stopping in a cafe, please buy something. Have you know some Euros on hand so that you can buy a bottle of water if that's the only thing you think you want to buy, buy a candy bar, something. But you know, it it's these folks that are supporting us with the infrastructure of the cafes and and the different places we stop at, they're working really hard. And it it doesn't um serve anyone on the Camino to go into one of these places and use their facilities and not help them stay in business. So that is very critical. So thanks for bringing that up. The other thing I wanted to say, you're much more talented with those devices than what I am. So I have not found those to work for me. But one thing that works for me is I always make sure I have a long-sleeve t-shirt or uh another layer that I can tie around my waist for a little more privacy when I'm not walking with somebody that can, you know, spot for me. And with having friends that live along the Cano routes, I just remind you that please don't pee in their driveway, please don't go in their yard, you know, like try to find the most private place that is not um interfering with their lives because they live there, you know. And um, I've had friends that have had um bags left, toilet paper left in their uh mailbox and different things, which, you know, we know that's not you watching this doing that. But, you know, just to remember that people actually do live along these routes and you know, they're living their best lives. And of course, they don't want to have those things happening out in their yards. So uh try to keep that in mind. And the last thing that I will add, I will not say the person, but you know, I've walked with someone, you know, a lot of people say, Well, I'm not gonna go, I'm not, I'm not gonna go on the side of the route. And I don't know how they do it because that I that doesn't work for me. But I've had people that have had emergency restroom situations because of food. And, you know, I think it's always good to have uh some toilet paper with you and bags with you because you never know what's gonna happen. And those bags have come in handy in many different ways for me, but um things can happen, and sometimes you're far away from a village, so try to be prepared with that. Were you gonna add something else, Rebecca?

Rebecca: 44:00

Um, no, I was um just gonna say um I've seen a lot more of those signs. Um, like do not pee here, and also do not take your boots off in a cafe and start playing with your feet at the table, please. I know, I know that you want to have your feet breathe and you may want to change your socks, but pick a more private spot, maybe outside of that cafe on a log somewhere. Um, do not do that. I've seen a lot more of those signs too. And quite frankly, when I see it, it's disgusting. Um, and people are literally playing with their feet and then like touching their food. And um, no, don't do that.

Leigh: 44:45

Kind of like I can get into a mindset, I think, when we're walking, particularly a long Camino, right? Like you just start kind of you're forgetting just basic ways that we would live normally, you know, because everyone around us is a pilgrim, and you know, like people doctoring their blisters in a cafe, you know, like we would probably never do that at home, but we kind of forget where we are, you know. So that's a great reminder. Okay, well, um, we'll stick with that for the questions from the group. I tell you what, we're gonna move on to uh a tip, a trick, or something you wish you had known the very first time you walk, something you'd want a first-time walker to not have to repeat the same maybe mistake or to be kind of ahead of the game than maybe what you were when you first walked. Uh, do you guys have any anything you'd want to say for that?

Rebecca: 45:39

Hmm. For me, I think um I'll circle back to it a little bit because I mentioned it, and and I think it's walk at your own pace. Because um, I think I had this in my head about the Camino family, and I'm gonna meet people and I want to keep up with them. And I ended up walking with uh uh the second day, a lovely woman, um 15 to 20 years my junior. Um, and she's actually the one who uh gave me some tips later on through WhatsApp about staying at this at the monastery on Polyo. And I tried to keep up with her and I was walking fast and I um I ended up with uh blisters um because I didn't want to stop and it had been raining and changed my socks. And um, you know, I didn't want to have her waiting for me, you know. And um I also hurt my my leg a bit with that. Um I had a tight hamstring, uh, which became a problem later on. So I think walk at your own pace, really. I know that we want to keep up with people sometimes, and you know, especially if we're having a great time, but you can connect with them through WhatsApp. You can maybe meet them later on up ahead um in in the town, or if if there's um that much of a connection, you can even taxi and taxi back. I had a beautiful young woman who um ended up walking, um, and she was walking slower than um than we were actually. And she's like, you know, can I take a taxi and just meet you for lunch and I'm a taxi back? So sure, that's fabulous, you know. And um there are, as Shoshana was saying, creative ways to do things along the Camino where you're not disconnecting if you don't want to, where if you want to meet up with people, there are ways to do that um without uh hurting yourself and um staying true to the Camino that you want to have as well.

Leigh: 47:42

Yeah, great advice. I have heard of a lot of people hurting themselves because they want to keep up with the group and walk in faster than them, and that that is really tough.

Shoshana: 47:51

Okay, Shoshana. Yeah, um, my tip is actually something that I didn't do because I didn't know before I went on my first Camino that there were Facebook groups. Um, so so my tip is sort of two parts that I think are thematically related. And one is if you're planning a Camino or you're on your Camino and uh you're looking at all these Facebook groups, don't get overwhelmed. There's a lot of repetition. You want to find a group or maybe two groups that seem like you like how people are talking to each other. There it seems like they're gonna be able to answer any questions that you might have, um and and choose those and narrow it down for yourself. But then also kind of I it's sort of a flip side of that, or maybe another facet of that. Uh learn how to use Facebook if you don't already know, and use the group search function. Don't forget about the group search function. When I see a question like, has anybody ever walked on the Camino Francaise from Saint Jean-Pied Duport before? Here's a photo I took, you know, for the algorithm. Um, and I think, well, uh some of that is rhetorical style or it's, you know, uh maybe English not as your first language. And yet, yeah, somebody has walked the Camino before uh in this group. So maybe pick out some keywords and do a search. Has anybody used shoes on the Camino before? Probably so. Has anybody ridden a bicycle on the Camino before? It seems likely. Has anybody been to this town before? And and I I often think that the question really is not, has anybody done it? But is a way of asking, what do I do in Burgos? What's there to do here? Uh, if I want to take my bike, how do I learn more about that? Or, you know, can I take my, you know, eight 18 dogs with me on the Camino? Um, but use the search function because chances are this question has come up before. Yeah.

Leigh: 49:59

Great point. Then you can add on to it. Maybe, maybe there's something about that topic that hasn't been brought up in the group, and there's a good opportunity to find out some new information. That yeah, that's that's really good. My uh tip for this week is a little more equipment oriented. And I think just because uh I'm getting ready to go to Spain and I was just thinking about what I was gonna pack. And as I was looking through my things, I remembered that I had forgotten the last time that I walked that I you I normally always wear toe socks under my next layer of socks. So I wear two pairs of socks, first the toe socks, then a regular sock. And then I usually change my socks around lunchtime or halfway through the day just to keep them nice and fresh. And that has really helped me prevent blisters. Uh a couple of times I tried to switch and I would put band-aids in between each toe, and it just became very cumbersome. And I found that the toe socks really work for me. May not work for you, but they work for me. So I'm throwing it out if it's something that you would want to try. So uh our last, we're gonna end with I wanted to give everyone, you know, because I always feel like I put people on the hot seat in the podcast, right? And I'm always asking all the questions. So I want to give uh the brave people that come to the table a chance to ask us a question. So uh Shoshana, do you have a question for us that you'd like us to answer? We can start.

Shoshana: 51:20

So here we go. I do. So you know how on the Camino you can get really involved in uh whether you're just sort of sprinting along or trudging or making your kilometers or getting to the next place, getting to Santiago de Compostela. What's something that each of you has done on a Cino that happened on the Camino? It may have been something in a town, might have been something nearby. But what's what's a non-camino thing you did that really enhanced your experience while you were walking the Camino?

Leigh: 51:58

Do you want me to go first or you want to go, Rebecca?

Rebecca: 52:02

Oh, let me give that a thought for a second. Could I can I mention the winery? I'm not gonna stop you. Yeah, finding an uh uh open winery that can give you a tour. It's great. Yeah, fantastic. Make sure you're almost hopefully to where you're gonna be for the rest of the day. Um, and don't overdo it. Uh, and drink plenty of water while you're having your your little sips.

unknown: 52:29

Nice.

Rebecca: 52:30

Yeah.

Leigh: 52:31

Uh one of my is uh I had probably walked, gosh, I don't even know how many Caminos. And I always had this like rule in my mind that when we would come to like a water source, you know, whether it be the ocean or a really lovely creek, that I would see a lot of pilgrims would take off their shoes and they would get their feet wet, and you know, just love doing that. And I would think to myself, that's insane. Like you're gonna get a blister after that, you know, and I was always so worried about it. And so one time, finally, um, it was a blistering hot day out, and I I was with some other pilgrims, and I was like, Yeah, I'm gonna do it. And you guys, I stepped into that water and it was like I had stepped into heaven. And I'm like, what have I been missing all these years out of fear of getting a blister? Right. And so now I'm like, you always have a towel in your backpack, you always have extra socks. What were you so afraid of, you know? And so I think for me, it was facing an unrealistic fear and finding that now if I see water, I will like seek it out because it felt so good on my feet. And now I've learned the value of you know, the reduction in swelling. And it's actually been a really helpful thing. Uh, another thing uh that I will add to that is I had um some friends that I have met while I was walking on um one of my Frances walks, and there was one person in particular that would stop a lot and would go out into fields and would just sit there and meditate for like sometimes up to an hour. And they would invite the rest of us, and I would think to myself, are you kidding me? Like we've still got like maybe four more hours, you know. Like, how are you gonna take that time to do it? And so I never agreed to stop, even though I'm a big meditator, I believe in meditation, all these things, right? But I would do it while I was walking. So um I was walking the inglés and I was by myself and it was super hot uh on one walk. And I looked over and I saw this tree. It was in the middle of this field. And I was like, wow, like it would it would really feel good to sit under that tree. And so I thought, unlike me, I just trudged over, sat down in the shade, took off my shoes, laid out, I think, like my extra shirt, and the next thing I knew, I had fallen asleep.

Speaker 3: 55:05

Oh, wow.

Leigh: 55:06

And when I woke up, I was so refreshed. And I thought to myself, all these opportunities, you've missed all this time because you were in a hurry to get there. And so I think my philosophy, I don't know if it's because I don't know why, but my philosophy has kind of changed as far as slowing down, enjoying the process instead of worrying about getting to my destination. And I don't know, maybe all these pilgrims were trying to tell me that over the years, but those were my two, two of my experiences uh I I could think of off the top of my head. Good question. Uh, do you want to tell us yours?

Shoshana: 55:43

I um always have a pair of lightweight binoculars or a lightweight minocular with me. And so I will do things like get up at dawn and forego, you know, coffee and toast and go to a river where there are supposed to be a colony of rooks, which you know, we don't have rooks in the US, and um, and be there when the sun rises and watch uh the rooks take flight. I love bird watching on the Camino and I've seen a lot of great birds. And for me, as just an amateur bird watcher, anyway, um, it's a way to see a different aspect of the country than just kind of being focused on on the road or on the churches or on you know the festival that I'm going to. Um, it's it feels like it um opens the window to a whole other experience of where I am. And you always have great photos. Thank you. You only see the great ones. That's the beauty of digital photography.

Rebecca: 56:52

I really quite like that idea, Shoshan. I may take that up because I'm an amateur bird watcher. I every on my Facebook, I post my morning birds and they come. And um, they're not here right. Oh, there are some right now, but my background is blurred. I should have unblurred. Um and uh yeah, so I've uh I've gotten into that and and and feeding my birds here um when they when they uh decide to fly by. And I I feel like they've become a little bit uh dependent upon me in the winter. Yeah.

Shoshana: 57:26

So but let me let me let me recommend to you then there's a new edition, second edition. Um, first author is James Lowen, W-O, or sorry, L-O-W-EN, Birds of Spain, second edition. And I have it, I have a copy at home so that I can see it a little bigger than the phone, but I have it on my phone, and so I always download it and I always download um the Merlin bird pack that includes Western Europe, um, so that sometimes I can hear, for example, a woodpecker and then hang around until I uh potentially I see it flying or I hear it drilling and can get a direction. And then Merlin gives me a good guess about what bird it is, and then I can double check it and it makes a lot easier to confirm what bird it is when I actually then see it, even if it's from a distance. But for me, that's just a tremendous pleasure uh anywhere that I'm walking. And anybody who says there are no birds on the Camino has not seen the 79 species that I've seen so far without even going off Camino to look for them. Wow. Fabulous.

Leigh: 58:38

I love you can combine those two hobbies together. That's really cool.

Shoshana: 58:41

Oh yeah, me too.

Leigh: 58:42

All right, Rebecca, your chance. Do you have a question for the panelists today?

Rebecca: 58:47

Well, um, I was gonna go one of two ways, um, but maybe we'll stick to um because after I walked my first camino, I um just I had so many good um hospitalizas, um hospitaleras and hospitaleros that I really thought about how can I do that? You know, how how can I serve pilgrims um on the Camino? Is there, you know, something I can do? And just wondering if if people out there are thinking about how they can serve pilgrims and volunteer, um, then you know, American Pilgrims has uh training for that. I went to one um a couple years ago. Um, I volunteered also at a friend's um albergue and um had a great time. You see, you know, you see everything, right? You see all of humanity uh uh when you are, you know, you're dealing with a lot of different personality types too. So it also teaches you some lessons. Um sometimes the lesson is patience. Um and um there was on my last trip, um, I was staying in Armen Teda with. the nuns and it was the feast day in Galicia and their um the the the person who helped them clean was on vacation you know she had a day off and um the nuns were a little bit worried about that and I told Paula I said you know um let me I'll I'll I'll stay I'll volunteer for you and I learned how to do things and off the just last moment and I was able to help them out and that just felt so good because they were really in need and um this uh April I'm going to be with them for three weeks volunteering. Three weeks three weeks in Armen Theta yeah yeah so um I'm so looking forward to that to the quiet to the um just being there in the garden and um it's really one of my very very happy places um being with the nuns in Armen Theta. So um there are various opportunities and you can connect with the American Pilgrims on the website and look at how you can um uh go to one of the trainings and then you can be placed with the federation to volunteer um at uh one of their uh federation albergas and um and give back to the community you know you might you might just have that feeling when after you're done wow this was was so great I really I really want to help other pilgrims.

Leigh: 1:01:27

Oh I love that that is okay where you're volunteering is one of my most favorite stops right before one of my most favorite parts of any Camino the Ruta de Agua I oh how wonderful to be able to stay there. Yeah I'm actually planning on going to a training I'm hoping to do the um I think it is yeah right before Thanksgiving there's one that's going to be in Oregon. So um I'm gonna try to go to that one because I want to go back. I I've only volunteered um at Camino Companions with Sister Catherine which is in Santiago which I want to and I know that Shoshana has volunteered she'll probably talk about that in a second in Santiago. But I think it's just there's so many tremendous ways we can all give back to this beautiful community that we're in. And um yeah working at uh Camino Companions is an amazing experience and I I really want to have the experience of working at one of the albergues uh next year. So I am going to go to that training hopefully November. I think the first training is getting ready to take for registration. I think there's four opportunities in the U.S. this coming year Maine, North Carolina, Oregon and one other spot but I can't think of where the other spot is maybe California is the first one it'll be on the American Pilgrims website it'll be on their website yeah yeah but uh yeah great topic to to bring up I can't believe you're gonna be there for three weeks amazing that's great Johnny do you want to add anything to that?

Shoshana: 1:03:00

Yeah uh well formally I did volunteer for two weeks at Pilgrim House in Santiago which was just a tremendous experience and I I highly recommend it um you can do so much for somebody with um with with really so so little effort in a way um you can sit and talk to somebody you can you know people would burst in and they'd they they'd be weeping uh I'm having a crisis I'm having a crisis what's the crisis um let's see what we can do I can't print out my boarding passes and I'm getting run all over town we can we can print your boarding passes you know there's a suggested donation but let me buy you a cup of tea while you print your boarding passes um I'm I'm having an existential crisis okay uh would you like somebody to sit with you and talk about that or do you want to use the you know go back to the library peaceful prayer and meditation room it's just it's so easy when you're not in the emergency. It's so wonderful to be greeting people as they come in. I just love the whole um you know barter trade in wool socks and backpacks you're not going to use anymore. And um I need a pole with a tip on it because they can't get the the broken tip off of my pole uh at my at my hostel and I've got to get out to finish Terra and then they come back and they bring you the poles back. So I think that's really tremendous. There also are opportunities that I would love to do sometime um working with Rebecca Scott and her ditch pigs doing cleaning um doing trash pickup with Karen Kaiser. I don't think that I have the um the the back and neck uh capacity at this point to help with one of the groups uh that picks up uh you know people's wheelchairs and helps them carry them over the rocks so that they can do uh a chair camino. But there's just all kinds of things you can do or pick up trash on your own or sit with somebody and offer them water uh if they're sitting crying in a field because they don't have any water and they're they're uh overwhelmed and have you know starting to have heat stroke, make a phone call for somebody if you have a telephone service or help them book something if you have any kind of service and they don't um slow down. Listen to people. I think there are so many different ways we can give back to people and I want to do that uh one of those trainings this year too I've been trying to find a time when I can do the hospitalero training so maybe you and I will get lucky and we'll wind up driving down to Portland together.

Rebecca: 1:05:48

Let's do it let's do it. Yeah that's I I want to say the training is helpful. There's all kinds of uh scenarios um and also I want to reiterate what uh Shoshana said just listening to people don't don't be don't be worried that you can't offer advice most of the time people don't want your advice they just want your you to listen you know and sometimes they want to hug um you know ask them if it's okay to hug them um some people don't like that so it's always um good to get consent but I found myself doing that um when you know there were people in Camino who were just crying in pain like for one young woman and she was just um and she had like a scoliosis type condition where um you know I just listened to her and I offered her a hug and that's you know that's all she wanted. When you volunteer of course you get that and you also get your duties right you're gonna be uh cleaning and cooking and doing whatever else needs to be done. Um but um it's a two-way street because you give but you also feel good giving you know that's just a human quality you know there's no ever true altruism in the sense that you know you're just giving without getting anything back because when you do give you feel that sense of um you know I am uh helping somebody in some way and of course that's gonna feel good and it should feel good you know yeah and let let me mention too if you're not on the Camino and you want to do something there are also many things you can uh make a financial contribution to um and I'll mention uh just one of them which is Sybil Yates's um neighborhood pantry uh 20 euro goes a long way and it really uh it helps her out and if you then go visit she'll give you a hug and she'll give you a tour of her little pantry and maybe you'll meet uh some of her neighbors maybe you won't but um I I always whenever I'm thinking um I don't know what I can do in the world right now I send Sybil 20 euro and the Costina Econó in Santiago I'll put the link uh in the show notes for that because you know that supplies lunch for um people in Santiago which is just a fantastic service and so yeah I think there's so many opportunities and I do want to say if you are uh if you live in the United States and you're watching this the American Pilgrims on the Camino has the annual gathering that's coming up in April and the day before that you can be a part of the organized walk to all the missions.

Leigh: 1:08:34

It's a 13 mile walk so even if you have not yet walked a Camino and you're thinking about it, uh when I went to the gathering two years ago also in San Antonio uh there were people who had never walked before and they came and it was so beautiful because they got to meet and be a part of a Camino family before they ever stepped foot in Spain. And I was like wow that was so courageous of them and how cool. And some of them are coming back this year that were there two years ago. So if you are watching this and you're like, I don't know about doing this, I think if you come to the gathering, it is such a tremendous experience and you'll be able to walk the missions Camino which would be a great experience. So check out the American Pilgrims on the Camino. I'll put the show link in the post notes as well as some of the other things that we just talked about. You know what we were going to do a short show and that never happens because but I got to say when you have two pilgrims like the two pilgrims that are here today I think I could talk to you guys all day about so many pilgrim things. So I hope you guys will come back and talk again. If there's anything that we've talked about today that you want more information on, you can put it in the post notes as well as if you want to comment on some of the other things we talked about. Again, we're just pilgrims these are our opinions if you want to know about the Camino the best thing you can do walk right you learn by walking and by trial and error and you know I always say to everyone if I could do it, if I could do this anyone anyone can make their way to Spain and walk a Camino. I had no training whatsoever in my life or had never traveled by myself until I was what 54 years old I think I'm when I walked my first one and it has changed my life completely in every single way. And so I I just encourage you if you haven't walked yet plan plan make that plan and walk and uh who knows you might be volunteering with us uh someday at one of these uh albergues or something else so thank you everyone Rebecca Shoshana Johnny thank you for watching we definitely love your comments if you have comments about things you want us to talk about next time let us know so thank you so much uh if you two will stay on we'll say our goodbyes but for now that's it for thank you very much by everyone see you on the trail I hope