The Camino Cafe
The Camino Cafe
123 - Johnnie Walker: How Walking the Camino can Transform a Life
What if embarking on a pilgrimage could transform your entire life? On this episode of Camino Cafe, we’re thrilled to welcome the legendary Johnnie Walker, a revered figure in the Camino de Santiago community. Johnnie shares his profound connection to the Camino, recounting countless pilgrimages and extensive volunteer work that led him to settle in Santiago de Compostela. Discover how the tradition of Sunday lunches fills his life with joy, laughter, and captivating stories from friends old and new.
We also explore Johnnie's life in Santiago and Malaga, balancing relaxation with his ongoing work, like penning guidebooks and leading groups such as the organization Age in Spain and the largest Camino Facebook group, Camino de Santiago All Routes, with a half million members and counting. Learn about his experiences walking the Camino Portuguese by the coast and the Camino Inglés, and his pivotal role in creating the first guidebook for the latter. Johnnie discusses the challenges of preserving the Camino’s heritage and ensuring accessibility, yet his unwavering love for the Camino and its vibrant community radiates through every word.
In an emotionally charged segment, we delve into the transformative power of the Camino through heartfelt stories and film projects inspired by the pilgrimage. Johnnie shares a poignant personal story about overcoming childhood trauma, emphasizing the importance of self-forgiveness and communal healing. John Rafferty, who transitioned from a political career to a fulfilling life in Spain, recounts his journey of grace, forgiveness, and ultimate transformation into Johnnie Walker. From life lessons learned on the Camino to the impact of personal stories, this episode celebrates the enduring spirit of the pilgrimage, its transformative power, and the profound connections it fosters.
Join the Camino de Santiago All Routes Facebook Group:
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Johnnie Walker's Books:
https://www.amazon.com/stores/Johnnie-Walker/author/B06XT5CRHV?ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_1&qid=1725790010&sr=8-1&isDramIntegrated=true&shoppingPortalEnabled=true
Age in Spain:
https://www.ageinspain.org/
Academia Xacobea:
http://academiaxacobea.gal/
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The Camino Cafe's intro and outro song with thanks to fellow Pilgrim, Jackson Maloney. Original Song - "Finnis Terre" - written and performed by Jackson Maloney - Singer, Musician, and Songwriter. Connect with Jackson: https://open.spotify.com/artist/3fdQsSqq9pDSwKcWlnBHKR
Hello pilgrims, welcome to the Camino Cafe podcast. Well, I am super excited because today we have a very special guest, camino legend, camino icon, johnny Walker. Now, johnny has walked numerous I guess countless Caminos here in Spain, as well as pilgrimages all around the world. He has written numerous guidebooks and spiritual books, all on a volunteer basis. And well, today we are filming here in his beautiful garden and this is also one of his passions. Well, welcome John. Thanks for coming to the Camino Cafe.
Speaker 2:And welcome to my home.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you.
Speaker 2:It's not the first time you've been here.
Speaker 1:No, it certainly isn't.
Speaker 2:Well, it's a great place for having parties.
Speaker 1:Oh it's beautiful.
Speaker 2:You were here at one recently. In fact, the doorbell might go when I'm expecting a delivery to replenish the wine supplies that were depleted at the last party we had in this terrace. Anyway, welcome. Well, that is the truth.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you, and I have to say I don't know how many people know what a foodie you are and you are known to hold some really amazing lunches, really long lunches, where we have a great time. So I'm wondering could you share with everyone that if you had to say what would be your last meal, what's your dream meal?
Speaker 2:in my life what?
Speaker 1:would be that dream meal well, it's got to be.
Speaker 2:It's got to be sunday lunch sunday lunch, I mean I started playing the organ in church when I was about 14 and very quickly it became a habit, after the last service on a sunday, to go to lunch and of course, of course, the older I got, the more more wine was introduced into the lunch.
Speaker 2:And since coming to live in Santiago 15 or 16 years ago, yeah one of the huge joys in my life is playing the organ on a Sunday morning and having lunch with a group of friends who are always, always pilgrims yes and on a Sunday afternoon when we laugh and we cry and we tell jokes and we tell stories and we spend the afternoon together. The Spanish call it the sobremesa that time at the end of lunch when friends and family are simply together enjoying each other's company. That would just be perfect.
Speaker 1:Oh, I agree.
Speaker 2:However, I hope the last lunch is not too soon.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, let's hope not.
Speaker 2:Let's hope not.
Speaker 1:Now, john, I often think about you could just be living a life down in sunny southern Spain. You could just be living the good life, as people say, but instead you chose to live in one of the rainiest places in all of Spain, santiago de Compostela. Now today it's sunny, so a little bit rare. You know what has motivated you to stay in Santiago.
Speaker 2:Well, that was never my plan.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:My plan was to retire early and to I had been going Since the children were young. We always came to Spain on holiday, so I knew Spain. And then I discovered Seville and the beautiful cities of Andalusia and I started going to Seville and for about seven years I rented a house in the middle of Seville. I played the organ in a local church and I thought Seville was the place for me. I've got friends in Seville, all of whom were surprised that one day I said I'm going to walk the community to Santiago and of course, when I got here I fell in love with Santiago.
Speaker 2:I fell in love with the cathedral and there were things for me to do because I realised very quickly that very few people spoke English. There was no English spoken in the cathedral. So I started a mass in English which has really taken off and is now a permanent feature In the pilgrim's office. No one spoke English. I say no one seemed terribly interested in saying congratulations to pilgrims. It was a production centre for giving out the compostela. So over three years we brought 300 English-speaking volunteers here to Santiago to befriend and welcome the pilgrims. And so my life here just kind of unraveled before my very eyes or developed before my very eyes.
Speaker 1:Well, sometimes I watch you and I think you're working maybe almost as hard as you did during your 30-year career. I mean, you really put in some hours on the things that you do for the Camino and for this community and I just wonder what motivates you, what gets you out of bed in the morning?
Speaker 2:Well, life's got to be enjoyable. And a friend of mine, a friend of mine, Bob, from Glasgow. He's about the same age as me and he says, John, we're never going to become people who sit in an armchair watching daytime television all day. No, we're driven to do things, to have projects, to make the world a better place, and that's been my privilege to be able to do that in so many ways.
Speaker 1:The Facebook group that you run Camino de Santiago All Routes. There's almost a half a million members in that group right now. That is amazing.
Speaker 2:Yes, well, Darren and Robert started the group and we're friends and I said I would give them a hand and very quickly it has grown. You know it's growing some weeks at 1,000 people a day joining the All Roots group and that shows the popularity of the Camino and the need for information which people have and it's great fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you have fun with it. You post a lot. Almost every day a couple of posts.
Speaker 2:Well, it's not difficult, because the Camino is such a rich source of stories and of information. Every morning, when I get up, there are emails in my inbox from pilgrims asking advice about routes, asking technical questions about boots, how, what's the best way to get boots, how do I do this? And what's and what's the most unwalked route I want to walk. I want a solitary Camino. Where would you recommend? So there's always questions to answer.
Speaker 2:And, of course, living here in Santiago. Pilgrims often need help. Somebody emailed me yesterday and there's a pilgrim arriving. They have an abscess. They think they need antibiotics. Where can they see a doctor very quickly because they've got to fly on to other places?
Speaker 1:so there's all the information about about Santiago as well yeah, I bet people would be really surprised how many emails you get and how many unique requests like that that you receive. How many emails would you say you get in, let's say, a month's time?
Speaker 2:oh, I don't know I don't know. I I'm on my computer every morning. I was up at 6 30 this morning and the first thing I do is clear out the emails.
Speaker 1:So this morning I was emailing people in Australia, people in Croatia and a pilgrim in Germany who wrote to me so, but that certainly keeps me going yeah, if you had to say, like what is there a mission for this group? You know, is there something to really hope happens with this group that you have because it's the largest one out there about the Camino? Well, this is the largest and it's growing.
Speaker 2:We see the all roots group as being for everyone. Yes, and also also, we don't encourage, but we're happy for Camino businesses not to spam pilgrims but to provide information about their services. We see it as an entry group.
Speaker 2:It's the entry, almost like the entry into the Plaza Obrador when this wonderful world opens up. So we want the All Roots group to be a welcoming place, a non-judgmental place, a place where beginners can feel comfortable, can ask their questions. We always say there is no stupid question, just ask the questions and members will answer. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And recently there's a new group for women over age 50. It's a sister group to this group and I think there's something at over 30,000 members as of right now Amazing.
Speaker 2:Well, almost weeks and weeks ago it's within weeks, we can count the weeks Rebecca Martinez, one of our moderators, thought it would be useful to have a group dedicated for women, a private group where women can ask their questions, and there are certain aspects of long-distance walking which are relevant to women and not to men, and women are concerned about personal security issues and so forth. So we said, under the aegis of the All Roots group, with our encouragement, start an all-women's group, and it's growing from zero to 30,000 in a matter of weeks and it's still growing.
Speaker 1:She knew what she was talking about.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's definitely working. So, as far as for you, what other projects do you have on the books right now for the Camino?
Speaker 2:Well, I've got to get this garden here ready for the wintertime because, you know, although I started off in Seville, as I said, and I thought I would retire to Seville, but then I discovered Santiago, but then, living here in Santiago, I discovered that it rains all the time in the wintertime.
Speaker 1:Just a little.
Speaker 2:Although I'm Scottish and I have a waterproof covering, I really don't like the rain. So one January we had 30 days of rain, not like Scotland. In Scotland it rains for a couple of hours, then maybe the sun will come out, but then it rains again. Here in Santiago, it can rain all day long and all night long.
Speaker 1:Yes, and the volume of rain, the volume is incredible. The volume is incredible.
Speaker 2:The streets are like rivers of long, yes, and the volume of rain, the volume's incredible, the volume's incredible.
Speaker 1:The streets are like rivers of rain.
Speaker 2:Yes, so at the end of that month, I said this is not for me, and I started. Well, I had a great interest in walking the routes in the south. Yeah, the Camino Motharabi, yeah, the Via della Plata was my first long-distance Camino, and so I love these cities, and so I went. I discovered Malaga. Direct flights here from cheap Ryanair flights from here to to Malaga. Within an hour, within an hour and 40 minutes, I'm in Malaga at four hours, from door to door to my apartment in Malaga. So I've started going to Malaga in the wintertime. So I'm a bit of a cheat when it comes to living here in Santiago.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I wouldn't say that's a cheat. I think that's self-care, you know, rejuvenation and kind of taking a bit of a rest because you work so hard year-round. And also, let me add, I think sometimes you're also working in Malaga. I mean, you've written some books while you've been there, so it's not like a total rest. So I wouldn't call that cheating.
Speaker 2:Well, that's true, and for a couple of years I was president of Age in Spain which is the organization to assist older people 45 people, 45 plus, who want to live in Spain or who are living in Spain. We run an informational line and so forth, and so I was able I'm able to do that from Malaga, as well, right, well see, see, you work really hard. Well, there we are.
Speaker 1:Now. Do you have any walks planned coming?
Speaker 2:up. Yes, next year I will certainly be walking the Camino Portuguese by the coast, which is about my most favourite work.
Speaker 1:What is it about it? What do you love about it?
Speaker 2:Well, I suppose walking by the sea. I find it incredibly liberating and the scenery is very beautiful and there are no huge hills. The older I get, the less attractive hills become. There are one or two with spectacular views.
Speaker 2:But yes, I will walk that. Next year I intend to walk the Camino Inglés again, which is in many ways my second love after the Via de la Plata. I must have walked the Camino Inglés because of the guide books. I must have walked the Camino Inglés 15 or 16 times. There are people who say hello to me.
Speaker 1:They remember you.
Speaker 2:I saw that in Bruma.
Speaker 1:It's quite remarkable, you're right, and that was the first guidebook that you wrote for the CSJ.
Speaker 2:It was, yes, I walked the Via della Plata as my first Camino in 2007. I was in Seville, as I always was, after Christmas, and I played the organ on the 1st of January, which is a huge feast in the city of Seville, and then I packed my rucksack and I walked out and I looked back at Seville and I said, like Arnie Schwarzenegger, I'll be back. But I didn't know that I wouldn't be back, because 36 days later, when I reached there, when I reached Santiago, everything, everything was different and Santiago won my heart. But I said to the confraternity of St James that everybody that's looking at this, or you certainly know what it's like I wanted to walk more. Yeah, and I said to the confraternity of St James where would you reckon, what would you recommend, as I don't want to walk for another month, a week or so?
Speaker 2:And they said, look at the Camino Inglés. And I said, oh, wow, that's very interesting. And they said, well, if you, ifino Inglés. And I said, oh, wow, that's very interesting. And they said, well, if you, if you're going to walk it, we've got notes which are very out of date. Would you consider writing a guidebook? And I had only ever written finance reports and board papers and so forth management analysis reports in my career before that, but that was my first guide book published in 2008, and that started everything.
Speaker 1:Wow, now I would say that you are one of the biggest supporters, cheerleaders, of the Camino and its pilgrims, but would you say there's anything that you wish you could maybe still change. You've made so many wonderful additions, you know, from welcoming pilgrims, to all the things you've done, but are there still some things out there that administratively, or you know, when people say things about it being too busy or whatever, that you just kind of wish that you could change?
Speaker 2:Well, there are a number of things. People think that there's a governing body of the Camino. Yeah, and of course there is no governing body. The routes go through local authority areas and it tends to be the responsibility of these local authorities to look after the Camino, to look after litter, provide facilities and so forth. And I just wish two things.
Speaker 1:Two things, here we go.
Speaker 2:I wish the local authorities in Spain would take the Camino and its heritage and its history it's a world heritage site Would cherish it. Now they do daft things. They think they're improving the Camino when they pave with concrete an area of the Camino instead of leaving it in its authentic state. So I would wish that the local authorities in Spain treat the Camino with more respect. And one of the things I find very disturbing is I go walking in Italy, so I've walked from Florence to Rome and from Lucca to Rome, and every church you pass by in Italy is open and welcoming for pilgrims. You know, we say my friends, when we're walking. They say here's another church that John's going to try and get into and it'll be locked. The churches are locked.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I have no idea why this is, and so I wrote to the bishops of Spain this is years ago, yeah saying um, could I go along each of these churches and here are prayer cards which I will provide and could we open the churches and I would like to put on the church door when we are open, just when we are open with the times? I never got a reply, so I wrote again. I still never got a reply. So I wrote again. I still never got a reply. So I would like to see the Catholic Church opening its doors to pilgrims. Some places are wonderful.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:In Grand Yon and so forth, but I would love to see pilgrims feeling welcome and feeling that churches were a place for them, no matter their religious background. Yeah, no matter whether they believe or don't believe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I totally agree. Now you will be walking from malaga right on january 11th and 12th for the global camino, so could you say a few words about that?
Speaker 2:well, I think the global, the global global camino is a wonderful concept started off by the Camino friends in Tassie, in the Antipodes south of Australia.
Speaker 1:Tasmania.
Speaker 2:Tasmania, a wonderful island which I visited, I heard, which I visited. Anyway, they started, they invented a way of St James, so they walk 115 or 120 kilometers and they invite people and hundreds of people go and they have a Camino experience and they have a credential. They've got cellars and just before the pandemic they thought can we open this up to people, to pilgrims in all corners of the world and invite them to walk in solidarity and in peace? Walk where you live, the same distance as the pilgrims in Tassie. And it's grown and grown and grown and this year, in the all groups group, we're making this a project. Now we've got almost half a million members.
Speaker 2:So we want to encourage people in every corner of the world on the 11th and 12th of January to get your boots on and go out walking and to post stories of that, who you meet, where you were, pictures, photographs of the scenery and I'll be doing that. In Malaga I'm going to start. There's a wonderful church where the Camino, mothara Bay, starts, the Church of Santiago, right in the centre of Malaga. It's extremely beautiful and the Camino starts there and that's where I'll start walking.
Speaker 1:Wonderful. Now, pilgrims, you can register today for that, so just go onto their Facebook page. I'll have a link in the show notes so that you can walk along with Johnny and the entire world I think will be joining us that day.
Speaker 2:Come and join us. It's going to be so much fun.
Speaker 1:So, john, you are in the newest movie about the camino the way, my way, which is based on bill bennett's walk 11 years ago, and then he wrote a memoir and then he decided to make a movie about it, and one of the most unique things about this movie, I think, is that the pilgrims that actually walked with him slay themselves, and I wonder if you could kind of speak about what makes that so unique about this movie.
Speaker 2:Well, this Camino to Santiago is an astonishing force and I have I mean, I just can't believe the way it's changed my life and I reflect when Bill first spoke to me about about ten years ago about having lunch here in Santiago and he's a filmmaker to trade and has many, many successful and award-winning films under his belt. But he's also a pilgrim and he wrote his book the Way, my Way yeah and he said, john, I'm going to make a film of that book.
Speaker 2:This is 10 years ago. And I said, well, films cost a lot of money to me. And he said, no, I'm determined to do it. We'll leap forward 10 years. And he said to me can I send you the script and can we talk about this film and how best to do it? And his proposition, his proposition, was a very unique proposition. Now, I remember watching the Way for the first time.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I watched the Way for the first time here in Santiago. No, with Martin Sheen on the stage introducing the film and answering questions. And little did I know then that Martin Sheen and I, because of my books, would become almost like pen friends and the Way is a wonderful movie. And so I was quite taken by this thing of Bill's. But Bill said the Way is a great film.
Speaker 2:Yes, I want to take a different approach. First of all, I want to make this a true story about my own pilgrimage, and my proposition is to have, of 20 speaking parts in this film that Bill was proposing, only three will be professional actors, the rest, I want to be pilgrims. And Bill said the way is a wonderful film. His film, the way, my way. I want to be a new approach to exploring the transformational nature of the Camino de Santiago, and I think his proposition is a very powerful one. Yes, he uses the physical Camino not to show off the Camino, although it does so. It's not about the cruz de ferro, right? And it's not about the wine fountain. It's about how pilgrims meet each other, how they share with each other, how they touch each other's hearts, and through that intimate experience between pilgrims, transformational change takes place.
Speaker 2:And of course, bill started off with a poem, being the arrogant film director and ended up being the loving husband at the end, but we won't have any more spoilers about the film.
Speaker 1:Well, everyone loved it here at the premiere. I mean, people were so excited to see it and it is an absolutely gorgeous film and, you're right, it really does capture the relationships that we make along the way. Now, in your role, you play a character that he met, an actual pilgrim, and it's in his book. I won't give it away, yeah, but it wasn't meant to be me Exactly. It wasn't meant to be me Exactly, so let's talk about that.
Speaker 2:Well, they needed an old pilgrim. That's the description of the script here. Introduce the old pilgrim, and they cast an older person, yeah, who was meant to turn up and be filmed but then couldn't do it. So my old friend, bill well, he's been talking to me about it all along out of the blue phoned me up and he said you're the old pilgrim, I'm sending a car to pick you up, to bring you to Othabriro to do the filming, and that's what that scene that I'm involved in takes place and this scene was not scripted, you kind of it was kind of impromptu most of it.
Speaker 1:And I remember during the premiere, you know, everyone was really glued to the screen, especially when you came on and I think you know, getting teary-eyed. And when the film finished, some friends said to me wow, you know, john's part was really good. You know, was that part of the script that wasn't like his story, was it? And I said no, that's John's true story. And so I think many moviegoers you know, weren't aware of what you shared that day. It was the first time actually publicly, that you had talked about being abused as a young child. So I wonder if we could talk about that a little bit and maybe start with what made you decide, because you didn't have to share that at that point, but something moved you to do that well, I'm not.
Speaker 2:I've thought about this. I'm not sure there was a decision yeah.
Speaker 2:Bill, as the director said to me, I want you to sit down in this scene and talk to the actor who plays Bill, his fellow pilgrim. Talk to them, as you would talk about the Camino and our experiences on Camino, and so there was a very long conversation. But as part of this, I was talking to him about the change that's taken place in me and that I believe is possible in all of us. And I said to him I found myself crying one day because I was reliving childhood experiences and I was reliving having been sexually abused, actually for far too long in my life. It was extremely damaging at the time and I got a bit emotional. I can feel it right now. So it's real and it's authentic. But, lee, you see, it wasn't a decision to do that, but for a long time in my life, only my wife knew about this, and then my therapist. And of course, we do things in our life like, like therapy, to recover from from these experiences. But as I've grown older, I've discovered that this is a very common experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but far too common men in particular, find it extremely difficult, yes, to talk about, and I've been quite overwhelmed at the reaction of people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what have people said Well.
Speaker 2:I get emails from people. I was at a screening in Australia and there was a huge crowd of people and I became aware of someone standing right behind me on my shoulder and all I got heard was a man's voice in my ear saying thank you very much, sean. And then he was gone and I don't know. I don't know who he was. So if this reaches people, then in the same way as the community of Santiago reaches people, then I'm very happy.
Speaker 2:But that conversation is in the context of how we deal with guilt, and sexual abuse is a horrible, powerful, stealing thief of an occurrence that removes innocence from children. But children feel guilty, and I certainly felt guilty for a very long time and no matter how much forgiveness goes on, you know there's a scene in Macbeth, the Shakespeare play, where Lady Macbeth feels so guilty about the murder that she's been involved in, she's trying to wash the blood from her hands and she said will this stain never go? Will all the perfumes of Arabia take this away? And of course, my great learning and the Camino helped me a great deal with this is we've got to forgive ourselves before we forgive other people. That's right, and there's a whole section of the movie which really illustrates the reconciliation which we're all capable of, no matter what we feel guilty about and no matter what our circumstances are.
Speaker 1:Right forgiving ourselves.
Speaker 2:Forgiving ourselves. And my most powerful experience and it still happens to me is I have played many roles in my life. I've played the role of the abused child, keeping a secret that could never be discovered, could never be revealed. I've been a father, a husband, a chief executive, all of these things. But when I step out on the Camino, it's just John, I'm not playing any roles. There are no faces, there are no people to impress, there's no one to disappoint, there are no secrets to keep. I can be myself and I believe that experience is the most powerful, transformational experience of the Camino de Santiago.
Speaker 1:I couldn't agree more. I find it interesting that that almost became really a Camino moment as you shared this story with Chris, the actor playing Bill. But that was yet another Camino moment, right there happening on the Camino no Sobrero right, and there you're having really the types of conversations that we often have. Did you find it cathartic after? And then seeing yourself in the movie did it help you even to process it a little bit more?
Speaker 2:David Plylar Smith. Well, exactly like walking the Camino to Santiago, where sometimes you meet somebody for an hour and you walk with them for a couple of hours. And then Chris and I had that conversation and we were only together for that short time and we'd become great friends. I was with him in Australia and of course we're two old guys getting older together and Chris had I mean, he would not mind me sharing this he had his own Camino moment where a daughter that he'd never met got in touch with him.
Speaker 1:During the filming.
Speaker 2:On location.
Speaker 1:On location.
Speaker 2:And came to see him and they met for the first time. That's the Camino Well there, we are there we are Now.
Speaker 1:You mentioned you know this movie is a lot about forgiveness forgiveness to others, forgiveness to ourselves and you just shared with me recently, I think, a very powerful story about a journalist who almost brought your career, your life, to what felt like an end over an article that he shared about you. And he recently contacted you. He was walking the Camino and he said he wanted to see you. Could you talk a little bit about how that conversation went and how forgiveness played a part in that?
Speaker 2:No names and no background, of course, but it is a powerful Camino story. But it is a powerful Camino story. At the end of the 1990s I was the Chief of Staff in the first Scottish Parliament that was reconvened after 300 years and it was a political appointment. I had never been political before then, but Tony Blair's government needed somebody to bring things together and for the Labour Party to win the election. So I was appointed and we won the election with the largest party and I was the chief of staff. But of course this was all new and the tabloid newspapers in particular were digging around for stories about people, about members of parliament and so forth. And you know they were emptying my, emptying my garbage to find things in my rubbish For real.
Speaker 2:For real, yes, absolutely, tapping my telephone and and so forth. No, no, absolutely no. I know that to be the case. Anyway, there was one story run about my daughter who had an addiction problem and it was a dreadful expose. I felt compromised in government and in many ways led to my resignation, and she was very badly affected by this. And let's go forward 24 years. And you know the name of that journalist would be triggering even to this day. Let's go forward 24 years.
Speaker 2:I left government and I got a job with an organisation called Unlimited where we gave grants. I was the chief executive, first chief executive. We gave grants to young people with good ideas for social projects and I gave a grant to a young man who was starting an organisation called Challenges Worldwide. He's married there's a point to this story. He's married to a woman who has the best Italian delicatessen in Edinburgh. So good, they have a royal warrant which means that the queen in these days and now the king are supplied by this shop. The journalist then went on to work, left journalism, then went on to work for a company which also has a royal warrant, to work for a company which also has a royal warrant. People who have royal warrants are invited to the royal garden party at the palace.
Speaker 2:Okay, so the former journalist and the boy to whom I gave a grant to start his organisation met and, as you do, one said to the other what are you doing for your summer holidays? And the former journalist said I'm going to walk the Camino to Santiago. And the wee boy no longer a wee boy said my friend is in Santiago providing welcome. And he mentioned my name, ping. And I got a telephone call from a middleman, a former government minister, to say the journalist wanted to meet me because after all these years he wanted to apologise. Wow, and I met him. I walked into the hotel. He and his wife were still dressed in their pilgrim clothes, they were still sweaty, it had a very hot day, their rucksacks were still there, they had just walked off Camino and, of of course, they were full of the Camino experience. And he just cried and said I'm very sorry.
Speaker 1:What did that feel like in that moment to you? I mean 24, almost 24 years later, to have this pilgrim sitting in front of you apologising for a real hurt, a real harm years ago to you.
Speaker 2:Well, call me old-fashioned, but my parents brought me up that if somebody has the grace and the decency to apologize for something, then you must accept their apology. And of course I was moved to sincerely accept his apology and that's it.
Speaker 1:That is an amazing, amazing story. John, I'm wondering you went from being John Rafferty, chief of of Staff at the Parliament in Scotland, to Johnny Walker walking in rural Spain with just a rucksack. How is the Johnny sitting in front of me right now? How is he different today than he was all those years ago? He?
Speaker 2:different today than he was all those years ago Immeasurably happier. Yeah, immeasurably happier. You know, a pal of mine has been promoted to the director of a college and she said to me John, all I deal with are problems, and that's what happens when you're the boss.
Speaker 2:And of course, my life is quite different. After that first guidebook that I told you about, I wanted to write more, but I had this vision, this liberal vision, that we could all own the guidebooks, that they would be non-profit, the sales would go to the Confraternity of St James and others, but that we could all chip in. And so I invented the name Johnny Walker. I'm Scottish and I like whiskey Just a little. That's beside the point. We could all be Johnny Walker, so the Johnny Walker guidebooks would be in common ownership. But of course, very quickly, the name stuck.
Speaker 1:Yeah, people think that's your real name. Well, in many ways it is my real name, it is now right, it is my real name. Yeah, so you're happier. What else is different?
Speaker 2:Well, I live here. I live in Spain, although I mean typical of me. I still have my house in London, but I don't really have any intentions of living in the United Kingdom again. I have summers here in Santiago when the pilgrims are coming, and I have winters in Malaga when it's not raining, it's still sunshining.
Speaker 1:But what about you as a person? Your traits? Has anything changed? Because I find you to be one of the most kind and generous and supportive people I have ever met. Were you like that all those years ago?
Speaker 2:It's very interesting Recently, following the screening that we had here in Santiago, and I suppose because of what I'm talking about in my scene I always feel extremely wound up and nervous and afterwards afterwards, yes, after many people have been abused talk about this. When you tell people, you're looking to see how they will react.
Speaker 1:Of course, 300 people were in the cinema.
Speaker 2:And, of course, I was standing outside and I snapped at somebody A flash of anger which would never usually happen Well, not too often, yeah, and I regret that happening, but it's happened. I'm human after all, I'm not Saint Johnny Walker.
Speaker 1:Well, you know that was such a vulnerable, vulnerable thing to do in the first place In the movie, right? So vulnerable and open. And you know, that night, here you are in front of family and friends, people that you know well, that had no idea that that had ever happened to you, as well as strangers. You know various people in the community came to that movie that night, pilgrims that had just showed up into Santiago. So no doubt you were feeling a lot of emotions. Walking out of those doors, I mean, I had people asking me was that true, right? So I can't imagine how you must have felt in the questions that maybe people wanted to ask you but maybe didn't, or maybe the conversations that they wanted to have because they shared the same awful experiences. So, yeah, I think anyone can understand that, that moment of feeling overwhelmed.
Speaker 2:A girl called Sandra Yetten who was my chief operating officer when we were giving out grants to young people with good ideas for social businesses, now works for the Dutch royal family and she came. She came to Santiago not recently, but a wee while ago, and we were having lunch and she said in the middle of lunch John, you're no longer angry. And I think that is right. I think that is right that I'm no longer the you were angry.
Speaker 1:Back in those days, they would describe you as having a lot of anger.
Speaker 2:Listen, I used to be up at six in the morning by the time my staff arrived in the office. They all had emails from me saying here is the agenda of the day, here's what I expect, here's how we're going to measure progress, and it would be trouble if targets were not met. So I'm no longer thank God. So I'm no longer thank God.
Speaker 1:I'm no longer like that you are one tough boss, I can only imagine. Well, but today but today you're like one of the most supportive people. I mean helping pilgrims with various problems that maybe they're experiencing in Santiago, as well as supporting people on their projects. So I think those traits are paying off still today, but maybe you're just a little softer a little more gentle?
Speaker 2:I certainly hope so.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There's your wine.
Speaker 1:The wine's here. We have to take a break. I told you he likes food and wine and whiskey. So, John, you are about to turn 72. I can only say that to you because you're a guy who told you that. Well, I wonder what do you hope to be remembered for? What do you consider your great accomplishments? What would you like your legacy to be?
Speaker 2:Well, I don't think like that. I have to say no I don't think like that. No, I have to say no, I don't. I've been privileged to do many things in my life and you know there are things from there are things from 50 years ago that changed things. I was running a little voluntary organisation in.
Speaker 2:Glasgow A doctor came to see me, dr Matt Dunagan, who was an orthopaedic physician, and he was concerned about the prevalence of rickets. Rickets is a bone disease where legs become deformed in the Asian community because of their diet. And he said to me could you get volunteers to deliver vitamins to the little corner shops run by members of the Asian community to be given out to the mothers of the family, to give to their family, and we'll get leaflets translated into the community languages? And so that's what I did, and he came back to see me to say we have eradicated this disfiguring disease in the Asian community and I just think that's a huge privilege to be able to do things like that yeah
Speaker 1:so there we are recently you said that one of the greatest lessons of walking the Camino is that we need very little to live. Can you talk about how that applied to your Camino and how that's now applied to the rest of your life, post-camino, since 2007,? That very first walk you took?
Speaker 2:Well, I set out from Seville this is very funny, you know. I set out from seville and I have, of course, I've done all my my research and I've. I bought my gear and I've been walking around clapham common. Um, I stood under the shower, in in my getting the bath with all my rain rain gear on, to stand under the shower to try it all out, to get the true, authentic for real.
Speaker 1:You really did that you stood in the shower to test your rain gear.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I really did that. Yes, that's great. And, of course, coming from scotland, and I was going to walk in wintertime um, from from seville, not not realizing that I would need to buy sunscreen within a few days walking out of Seville and the south of Spain is not Scotland in winter time. Anyway, I packed everything apart. I packed a thermos flask that I could put boiling water into. I had powdered soup so I could make soup if it was cold.
Speaker 2:I bought a very fancy shortwave radio, a radio a longwave radio, which I radio, a longwave radio, a shortwave radio, which I've still got actually, so I could when I stopped and had my soup on the Camino, I could listen to the BBC, so I did the World Service, so I didn't lose control and of course I developed terrible blisters, of course Terrible blisters that were very crippling. And you see, as I walked along and I realised that there were good days and bad days, and I was thinking about a whole lot of things. But one of the liberating realisations was that if the people who loved me stopped loving me, if I lost my house, if I became homeless, if the house burned down and I hadn't paid the insurance, if I had nothing left, if my pension fund went bankrupt or I made bad investments, then all I need to do because I became so happy wandering the Via de la Plata- all the thousand kilometers to to Santiago.
Speaker 2:All I need to do is pack a few belongings, as I say in the movie two pairs of socks, two pairs of underpants, two t-shirts in a rucksack and be perfectly happy walking the Camino to Santiago, and that's hugely liberating. Now, lee, we're sitting here and I'm waiting in wine being delivered, so my life is not one of complete austerity, but it's the realisation.
Speaker 1:But if you had to.
Speaker 2:It's the realisation that's liberating Exactly, and it's something that I choose to do two or three times a year. That will find me on the Camino routes with not very little in my bag.
Speaker 1:Oh no, I've seen that bag very little in it. You travel lightly, yes. Now I want to turn to the fact that you know a lot of people dream of moving to Spain and you've done it very successfully. You've been here what? Almost 15, 16 years, I wonder John. Wonder, john, you know if people were wondering about doing something like this. What do you think's been key in helping you to build this beautiful life where you really have fit into the community?
Speaker 2:well, people are moving to Spain and I give them as much assistance as I can. I am worried with a lot of people who want to move to Spain about what they'll do when they get here and I don't know what people have in mind. I came with a purpose.
Speaker 2:So, I was going to go and move to Seville to play the organ and sip chilled sherry under an orange tree. When I arrived here, the way I moved here was I volunteered in the pilgrim's office to handwrite the Compostelas. And I did that for seven years and I started the Amigos Welcome Service, the Mass in English. And one day I was coming out one week a month to write the Compostelas and Danny, who became my best friend here in Santiago, a Santiago boy, said John, we have an apartment in our family that we don't use. We would like you to use it. Let's agree a rent.
Speaker 2:And so I started coming more and more, but I came with a purpose. I came to go to work in the pilgrims office and then, working the pilgrims office, I came. I came to go to mass, to organize the mass in English. I came to find apartments for the volunteers and organize the amigos welcome service. And so, for people who think coming to Santiago is all swanning around, being nice to pilgrims and chatting and having lunch, yes, it is, but it can't be like that all the time.
Speaker 1:Exactly, you can only go out to eat so often, right? You still have to have a purpose in life and you have really formed, like you're saying, so many different purposes here, from the Camino to playing the organ, and I wanted to give you a little shout out because you recently, I think, probably set a record for the number of masses that you played in a period of time. So can you talk a little bit about that?
Speaker 2:every year in the Church of San Agustin when I play the organ, the Jesuit Church in Santiago they have a nine day festival leading up to the feast of st Rita st Rita, medieval saint, for whom was great devotion here in Santiago and we have nine days, 18 masses in the nine days, and then on the on the day on the 22nd of May we have ten masses. So that was one thing and I thoroughly enjoyed doing that. We have 14,000 people in the church on the 22nd of May and then there's another festival of the Sacred Heart, and that didn't happen during Covid, so they have a great procession through the streets with a marching band and so forth. So they asked if I would play at those nine days and then I was invited to London. And then I was invited to London to play at nine days in my excuse me in my old church there, and so I ended up playing a hundred masses in six weeks. So it was wonderful.
Speaker 1:A hundred masses.
Speaker 2:One hundred masses.
Speaker 1:One hundred masses in six weeks yeah, incredible.
Speaker 2:In London I was playing at 7.30 in the morning.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I used to come down in my pajamas Nobody could see me play the organ and go back to bed.
Speaker 1:Wow. So I mean that's a real illustration, though. I mean you've got your garden here, you've got your Camino work, you've got your organ playing and you have really become a member of town here. You recently just received a huge honor. Could you talk about your induction?
Speaker 2:a huge honor. Could you talk about your induction? That came as quite a surprise. Actually, the University of Santiago has an academy at Shakopea, so they have an academy which is devoted to the Camino and all things related to St James, where they it's an academy of top class academics and people who have made a huge contribution to the cult of St James, to the culture of St James, and I was very touched actually to be asked to join the academy and they nominated me, the committee accepted me and there was a great ceremony where they present a certificate and a medal and I get to address the academy.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, congratulations well deserved.
Speaker 2:Well, I don't know that, I'm much of an academic.
Speaker 1:Well, how many books have you written?
Speaker 2:Well, 19. Well, I told the story that night that one of my friends here in Santiago is the former rector of the university. Ah yeah, who is still? He's a physicist and he's still researching black holes. That's his thing, theoretical physics. But he thinks theories have to be able to work in practice. So it's making the theory work in practice. So I said to the academics assembled in the Academy so he taught me that. And what I taught him is that whiskey doesn't work until you take it out of the bottle. So which is my practical application?
Speaker 1:have you had some practice at that?
Speaker 2:I've had a little practice.
Speaker 1:I intend to practice more well, to close the interview, I wanted to mention a quote that you said the other day, and I I wanted you to expand upon it because I think it's so true. The camino de santiago is the only bank in the world where it is guaranteed that you will get out more than you put in. All you have to do is walk it, and that's what you put in.
Speaker 2:All you have to do is walk it and that's what we put in. So we put into the bank of the Camino our effort, our sweat, our every footstep every day, our conversations with other pilgrims, and that investment repays us. I believe it's guaranteed. Now there are some people who don't enjoy the Camino. There are others who it transforms their life, but everybody gets something out, and I believe everybody gets out more than they put in yeah, well said well, john.
Speaker 1:We'll close out here, but thank you for all the things that you have done for the Camino and for the pilgrim community community. It's been tremendous and we can't thank you enough. And to everyone that's watched today, thank you for tuning in. This interview will be available on our audio podcast as well as on YouTube. So thank you for joining in and catch us next time at our next interview. We'll see you later, ciao, thank you. ©. Transcript Emily Beynon.