The Camino Cafe
The Camino Cafe
118 - The Future of the Camino: Is it Overrated and Overcrowded? - with Special Guest Host, Reino Gevers of Living to Be Podcast, and guests Johnnie Walker Santiago and Leigh Brennan
Special episode this week with Guest Host, Reino Gevers, from the Living To Be Podcast. Walking the Camino de Santiago pilgrimage route in northwestern Spain has surged in popularity, drawing nearly half a million pilgrims this year alone. However, as its fame grows, so do concerns about whether the Camino is becoming a victim of its own success. Has it now become overrated and overcrowded?
In this episode, we talk to Camino veterans Leigh Brennan and Johnny Walker, two expats living in Santiago de Compostela, on the latest Camino developments. Leigh hosts the popular Camino Cafe podcast. Johnny has written several Camino guidebooks and hosts the Camino All Routes Facebook site which has more than 438,000 followers."
#caminodecompostela #selfimprovement #santiagodecompostela #walking #pilgrimage #pilgrim
Highlights of this episode:
-Preparing and walking the Camino for the first time
- Walking the alternative routes that few people know about
- Why the Camino remains a life-changing experience
Video Version of this Interview with Reino, John, and Leigh:
https://youtu.be/zt6c4fq-gfQ?si=1PorQPs3QsAlKk5z
Interview at the Camino Cafe Podcast with Reino Gevers - Deep Walking for Body, Mind, and Soul - Episode 13:
https://youtu.be/ZH0-GUHPpek?si=imF-3UwrRiSN2dux - YouTube
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/13-reino-gevers-deep-walking-for-body-mind-and-soul/id1562037974?i=1000524367838 - Audio Version
Connect with Reino
https://linktr.ee/redfishsword
Reino’s YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/@Redfishsword
Connect with Leigh:
Camino News Update
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9jRyUVnjI4WJMbM7rEbXW9ycGuQwm8Ae&si=vKPxgrYLQfyC_m4H
Subscribe to our YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6VN9ze3z61n6tRLtDXWuQw
Follow us on Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/thecaminocafepodcast/
The Camino Cafe's intro and outro song with thanks to fellow Pilgrim, Jackson Maloney. Original Song - "Finnis Terre" - written and performed by Jackson Maloney - Singer, Musician, and Songwriter. Connect with Jackson: https://open.spotify.com/artist/3fdQsSqq9pDSwKcWlnBHKR
Hello pilgrims, welcome to the Camino Cafe podcast. I'm Leigh Brennan, your host. Well, I'm standing on the iconic street in Santiago, rua Valar, and right now you can probably hear all the diners at the cafes. It's lively tonight and what a beautiful evening of weather. Hey, I have a special treat for you today. We have a special guest host, rayno Gevers, and he is here with his podcast Living to Be. Johnny Walker and I had the opportunity to be on his show this past week to talk about all things Camino. Rayno is a Camino pilgrim himself and he has quite a story of personal transformation after he walked his first Camino. You can learn more about him and his Camino book, deep Walking, by checking out the interview I did with him here at the Camino Cafe podcast on episode number 13. The interview you are about to hear is also available on Rayno's YouTube channel. Links to connect with him are in the show notes. Now let's get to it. Let's talk about the Camino.
Speaker 2:We experienced this wonderful alchemy of periods of deep, deep reflection in the most gorgeous scenery.
Speaker 1:You can walk 2,000 kilometers and arrive in Santiago and not have changed. And you can walk 100 and arrive in Santiago and you could have had great transformation.
Speaker 3:Welcome to Living to Be with your host, Reino Gevers, a podcast aimed to inspire you in becoming your authentic self. Life can be a topsy-turvy world of ups and downs as you deal with health, spiritual growth and self-development issues, but from the day you were born, you are meant to become who you really are and to live your destiny.
Speaker 4:Today we'll be talking about the Camino, a very popular pilgrimage route in northwestern Spain, and our guests are Lee Brennan and Johnny Walker, two expats who've been living in Santiago for many years. They are the experts when it comes to many tips and advice on how to walk the Camino, how to prepare for the Camino. They live in Santiago and obviously have been talking to many pilgrims the past few weeks. A lot has changed on the Camino. Many people are asking themselves can I still walk the Camino? Am I not contributing to over tourism? Is Santiago not too crowded? Are there not too many people now walking the Camino? What is your impression of the events the last few weeks? What's happening in Santiago?
Speaker 1:Well, thanks. Thanks, first of all, for inviting us to be a part of this podcast. It's wonderful to see you and you know Santiago is busy. It is busy, but you know it's not just pilgrims coming into the city. We have a lot of tourists, you know we have a lot of Spanish tourists that spend the holidays here, so that adds to the excitement in the city. We have a lot of tourists coming from the cruise ships in Vigo, so there is always something happening here. Would I say it's too busy for pilgrims.
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't let that stop you from walking, because I think everyone has the right to come and walk a Camino. I do think we need to be purposeful in how we act when we're here in Santiago, you know, and to respect this city, to respect the locals, to respect everything about it when we are here. But I wouldn't let those crowds keep us away. I know on social media there is a lot about that. The Camino is too crowded, you know. Don't walk the Frances and that is not true. You know. It's not that crowded from St John to Saria. It's that last 100 kilometers where we see a lot of busyness on all the routes, but further behind it's not as busy and there are places to stay.
Speaker 1:And I always say to veteran pilgrims maybe leave that last 100 for new pilgrims, right, maybe for the first timers that want to come and they want to have that first experience of a week to 10 days of a Camino. We can leave that to them and we can take different routes, which we can talk about more later. But you know, I do think it's busy, that tourism all across Europe right now is in the news. So I think we need to be very intentional about how we travel and we need to travel with purpose and with kindness and with compassion, like true pilgrims. But I wouldn't let the noise out there about it being overcrowded to stop you from walking. I think that is still very achievable, but you know, that's my opinion. I don't know, john, how are you feeling about it all?
Speaker 1:Well, I think it's been a great year, so far.
Speaker 2:We had a wonderful, a magnificent St James's Day. Lee and I were out there on St James's Eve looking at the magnificent fireworks, and St James's Day itself was tremendous. The streets were full of people. You know, in the days leading up to St James Day on the 25th of July, there's all sorts of things going on Orchestras set up in the middle of the street and give a concert. There are jugglers on the plaza, fire eaters, the giants come out, these magnificent, gigantic figures with people on stilts inside, and great joy. You know, this year we've had dozens and dozens and dozens of groups of young people piling into the city. Now they're usually Spanish or Italian and whenever you get young people they sing on the way in and it's very joyful. But local residents, if they're singing at six o'clock in the morning, they don't find that too joyful.
Speaker 2:So there have been reports in the newspapers which my friends and you can see how close I live to the cathedral, my friends think this is a fiction, this is a made-up story in the newspapers and really the local people of Santiago, apart from noise very early in the morning, have no problem with the pilgrims. But of course, rhino, I remember my father telling me stories of when he used to go to school in his bare feet and run behind the lorry which was watering the streets to keep the dust down and they would paddle in the water. And there were these romantic stories Now, when I was a wee boy, walking to school in my bare feet had no attraction for me. Now, the reason I'm telling you this story is old timers always look back and think that the days gone by were better. They weren't better, they were just different.
Speaker 2:In 2008, I wrote my first guide to the Camino Inglés and that year 1,200 pilgrims walked the Camino Inglés from Farol. Last year, 24,000 pilgrims walked the Camino Inglés and this year there will be more and, of course, with more people. It's going to be different. That's progress, and I can't say the past was better than just now. Yesterday, my goddaughter Catherine set out walking from Porto up the coast. She's having a whale of a time. She's sailing. Of course, the scenery remains beautiful and one of the good things is there are other pilgrims around, much more so than my early days on these communes.
Speaker 4:So that's where we are right'm writing yes, I walked the camino first time 2006 from saria to santiago, just to get a first idea, and, uh, so much has changed since then. I, of course, also follow the news on the camino, follow the discussions on facebook. Everyone's saying well, it's overcrowded, there's too many people on the Camino. But last year Sarah and myself walked the Inglés and this year we walked the Aragonés. There were hardly any people, it was empty, and I was asking myself well, where are all the people? Obviously, a lot of them are walking from Saria to Santiago, and I did pick up some of these statistics and one of them I found was that in the 13th century there were just about the same number of people walking the Camino as they are today. We're going to hit the half a million mark this year, which was the same in the 13th century.
Speaker 2:Right, even I cannot in the 13th century. Well, right on, even I cannot remember the 13th century, but I think that's quite right. And you know, more and more people talk to me about I mean. I speak to pilgrims every single day and I've never met a pilgrim yet who hasn't been able to find a bed. And this is the great panic and the rum rumors that go around and and so forth, perhaps the days of just what you know.
Speaker 2:In the beginning I used to walk the communion place. I've walked the communion place 15 times and 15 years ago I would. I would set out, not book anything, just walk into Pontidoumi or the little villages and ask for a room, and there was always a room. I wouldn't do that. Now, to tell you the honest truth, I would book and I think booking is a great thing. People can still walk without booking if they're prepared to then go and search for a bed and they will find a bed, but they may have to walk on a few kilometres. Given the stage of my life, I prepared to book, which means I can set up if I've got 20 kilometres to walk. I know that's going to take me five hours. I'd add on another hour for breaks and so forth. So that's six hours. So I would set out at 10 or 11 o'clock in the morning and there are no crowds.
Speaker 1:They've all been up at six o'clock, seven o'clock, running along their own. So you know, experience tells you how room were you looking for? Well, maybe there wasn't the exact type of room, maybe there wasn't a private room, but there's still a bed at the albergue. So there's different things that you can try sometimes, and I always say, kind of, push against what maybe you're comfortable with sometimes and you will still find a room.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I would concur, because in my first years I never booked anything and I always found something like the Camino provides. But I agree absolutely, johnny, that today, the last few Caminos we've walked, we always booked some accommodation ahead and it was wise to do so. And in two instances, on the Aragonese this year, we stayed in Albergues, which were almost full. But we did, we did find beds and, and people are also quite prepared to pull some mattresses out of the shed and then you can sleep in the floor somewhere. There's always a place to sleep.
Speaker 1:Well, I just walked the San Salvador not long ago and we didn't see anyone the entire day and we didn't book ahead for the first night because we wanted to stay in the Muni. And when we got there we thought we'd have our pick of beds Right. And we walk up and there are people kind of lingering outside. Well, it turns out we were the last two people to take the last two remaining beds. So, on the routes that do not have as many accommodations, really think ahead, because from there on we did book ahead the rest of the time.
Speaker 4:Let's talk about the changes that are obviously being planned on getting the Compostela. At the moment, the Compostela, just for those who don't know what the Compostela is.
Speaker 2:It's this certificate. No, that's the certificate. That's the distance certificate.
Speaker 4:This is an old one from 2018.
Speaker 2:That's the distance certificate.
Speaker 4:Yeah, now Something is being considered, or has it already been decided to change the modalities? It used to be 120 kilometres for the last stretch to get the certificate.
Speaker 2:So to obtain the Compostela, people have to walk the last 100 kilometres into Santiago or cycle on a bicycle the last 200 kilometres. Using electric cycles for that purpose is now prohibited, unless unless there's unless people are disabled and can't use a normal pedal cycle. Um, so it's still within the last 100 kilometers. Collect two cellulose per day and if you're on a bicycle, collect two cellulose per day within the last 200 kilometers.
Speaker 4:No big changes apart from the sellers, by the way, um stamps from the places you've stayed at. Yes, uh, the discussion is also about extending those, those kilometers, so that there would be less of the crowds from saria to santiago, and a lot of controversy about that.
Speaker 2:Well, it's been it's been proposed for a long time right now and fixed at the International Federation. They've been proposing we should go back to history Asturias, where the king became the first pilgrim on the Camino Primitivo. That's 300 kilometers. So they think that would be a more sensible thing. That's 300 kilometres, so they think no intentions of changing it. So I think people can talk all they want, but unless the Cathedral of Santiago says, okay, we will extend 100 kilometres, nothing's going to change. And nothing has changed and I don't believe anything will change.
Speaker 4:Yes. The question I would like to ask both of you is how can we motivate more people to walk these lovely alternative routes? I'm talking about the Inglés, the Aragonés, the Primitivo, the Portuguese, the Via da Plata lovely Camino routes, but everything seems to be congregating on the Frances Lina Roots, but everything seems to be congregating on the Frances.
Speaker 1:I think, the more that we have veterans talking about these alternate routes like the San Salvador. So I think a beautiful walk, if you are a veteran pilgrim and you want to try this, is to start in St John. When you get to Leon, take the San Salvador, then you can pick up the Primitivo or you could go over to Norte and you'll miss some of that bottleneck Not all of it, but some of it. You also gasp. You could take a bus, maybe the last couple, or, you know, you don't have to walk into Santiago if you don't want to do those last 100 from Saria. I think you know being more open to alternatives and not saying, well, it's only one way.
Speaker 1:You know, I've walked with some pilgrims that started in Saint-Jean when they got to Leon. They thought it was getting too busy. They didn't like the fact they couldn't get the type of accommodation they wanted. Again, it wasn't that there weren't any rooms, they didn't like the type of accommodations that were available and they abandoned their Camino. They just stopped and went home and I thought how sad you know that they just gone to. Maybe on the San Salvador, which you know, I would say San Salvador is a very challenging walk. I would not recommend it for brand new pilgrims because it doesn't have a lot of infrastructure yet.
Speaker 2:You know it's not as popular as the walk, so I wouldn't recommend it.
Speaker 1:It's all uphill. It's all uphill, it's very, very challenging. But for an experienced pilgrim, I think it's great Now saying that there were two Americans that had never walked any Caminos before, that were walking the San Salvador, and they did it. And then they went on to finish the Primitivo yeah, the Primitivo into Santiago. So I think the more that we talk about it, I think the more that we don't say that you know, the Camino only looks one way. It only looks like the way we saw it in a movie or the way that someone's book looked. I think we need to open up the community and be talking more on social media and when we're talking to our friends about that. There are many ways to come into Santiago and the idea is about transformation, taking this walk, arriving in Santiago and then taking what you've learned home. So where you start is not as big a deal as ending and coming to Santiago and taking it back to your home, changing, allowing those changes that you've experienced on the Camino to become a part of your everyday life and to make those changes at home. So I think it's less about where we start and more about how we end and what we do with our lives after our Camino. So I think the more we talk about that, the more we're going to help. I think John is a great example about talking about the Camino Ingles and his statistic about when he wrote about it. Look what happened. So I think if we have more authors talking about their experiences on these other routes, then we'll, you know, hopefully encourage others to try other places.
Speaker 1:I just like I said I just walked, that I just walked the Invierno. There was hardly anyone on it and it was lovely. And I will say, you know, the first couple of days I'm like, well, this is not the Camino Frances. I was missing certain things, because I do love the Camino Frances. It was my first Camino and I was thinking to myself you know, nothing's happening. I just don't feel the spiritual part. But day four, it all happened right.
Speaker 1:So those transformations are possible on any route if your heart is open to it and you're walking with the right intentions. And you know you, you uh, yeah, you're open to it, you have a purpose about your walk right. If you're intentional, so that it can happen on any route and it can happen in any number of days. My first was from ossegrero, it was shorter, it changed my entire life. It it saved my life, it changed everything. So you can walk 2,000 kilometers and arrive in Santiago and not have changed, and you can walk 100 and arrive in Santiago and you could have had great transformation. So it's all about the intention and how you walk and the route. That's just the way you're getting here. I don't think it has to be any specific route, but that's just my opinion.
Speaker 4:Johnny, your take on that.
Speaker 2:Well, I would encourage veteran pilgrims who have already been to Santiago, who have got a compostela, maybe more than one compostela, if they want to continue walking and they want to continue the Camino experience. It's not always about arriving in Santiago In the wintertime, because, although I'm Scottish, I hate the rain, can you imagine? I can't imagine that Well that's the truth.
Speaker 2:And of course it rains prodigiously in Santiago in the wintertime and I go down to the Costa del Sol, usually to Malaga, and the routes, the walking routes in the south of Spain, especially in the wintertime, the good weather is guaranteed. You know, if you set off from Seville, you set off from Malaga, almería and so forth, these great towns, cadiz, in the south of Spain, and there's beautiful walking. And if people are looking for albergues, there are albergues if you do some planning. And in each of these towns there are local Camino associations who are full of local knowledge and can tell you where the accommodation is and so forth. So I would encourage people who don't necessarily need to get to Santiago because they've been before, but want the Camino experience is to head south and try out some new routes in the south of Spain.
Speaker 4:I want to get back to your comment on the intentional.
Speaker 4:When you start your pilgrimage, I do think most people walking the Camino are seeking something. Bearing in mind that the churches are in a crisis, the institution everywhere in the Western world at least are seeing believers seeking alternatives, heading for new age religions or pseudo religions, but obviously many people are seeking something pseudo religions but obviously many people are seeking something. There's something missing in society today that people are yearning for, and I know this from the many conversations I've had with pilgrims where they started their pilgrimage and I was at the same place at one stage. Same place at one stage where you're in some kind of spiritual crisis and you discover experiential spirituality on the Camino and your Camino, a different person. And then, as you said, the process really starts after finishing the Camino and I think many people get back home, and I think many people get back home miss that community of like-minded people they had on the Camino and I often ask myself well, where can people find that community that you used to find in churches when they get back home?
Speaker 1:I have a story for that, actually. So, you know, I think, first off, I think we, you know, there's this epidemic of loneliness, a loss of connection to fellow humans, and that is something we really find typically on the Camino is this ability to connect with people, to have real conversations with people you've just met, right. So I think it helps with that and I think, you know, in a world where sometimes we're feeling a loss of hope or we've lost hope after grief, we're looking for our new North Star, we're looking for connection to God or to our purpose, to the universe, and so I think those are many things that we're looking for and craving right now that can be found on the Camino. When I talk about people taking it home and how do they do that in their own community, there's a girl in Seattle by the name of Sarah who walked the Camino prior to COVID and she was an Instagram influencer. She you about what could she do in her own home, and so she started holding urban walks in Seattle that were equal to Camino days, right? So she just started walking right in Seattle and she would walk 25 kilometers. She'd start, maybe, in a suburb that was a little bit out, walk 25 kilometers and it was a Camino day. Well, this girl's gone from doing that by herself to now being sponsored in the US. Rei is sponsoring her. She's got other sponsors. She's now walking with 50 to 100 people in Seattle. So she took that Camino idea back to her home and has created community right there in Seattle. That is very similar and she never really intentionally thought that would happen and I think it's just a beautiful story. So I think that's the way that we can create that.
Speaker 1:At the same time, I think we can do smaller things. You know, I think as a veteran pilgrim, it's about giving back after your Camino. So maybe it's something small, you know. Maybe it's writing a book. It's something bigger, but maybe it's just something smaller, like when you're standing in line at a coffee shop to strike up a conversation, a real conversation, to volunteer somewhere. That moves you. I think those are the ways that we build new community back home that maybe are similar to what we have here, but we've lost because you know, we're all on this all day and we're not looking up from it when we're in line, when we could be looking up like we do on the Camino and we could be talking to our fellow line holders and different places that we visit. So I think the things that we're missing are possible, but we've lost that connection to nature and what was normal in past society. But we can get that back at home and the Camino is a great way to start practicing it.
Speaker 4:Yes, Johnny, your ideas on that.
Speaker 2:Well, I think you're absolutely right, rhino. The world received, we all received, an absolute shock with the pandemic and it's as if the pain of it has receded. But it really did happen and we were locked up. We were all reminded of our mortality. And, of course, as the world came out of the pandemic problems in the Middle East, problems elsewhere the world has become the most unstable I can ever remember it being, and that sends shockwaves of fear across the world. All you have to do is turn on the news and realise how fragile the peace in the world is and of course, that sets people thinking and I believe it fuels a spiritual thirst in people which, for a lot of people, the Camino can satisfy. Now, it's not for everyone, but for the vast majority of people walking along the Camino can satisfy. Now, it's not for everyone, but for the vast majority of people walking along the Camino it can be, as Lee says, transformational.
Speaker 2:You get time to think about your life, about where you've been, about where you're going, where you're going, about what you value in life, what you need to get rid of in life, what people you may need to get rid of in life, and so forth, and it's a profound experience there. What do you do afterwards? What do you do, rhino, when your family are fed up listening to you talking about the Camino? Well, you live with other people, either through a Camino association in your country or in your state, as Lee's talking about, or you can have virtual experiences. You know the group which we run, the Camino de Santiago All Roots group, has got 450,000 members. It's an incredible thing and it keeps growing.
Speaker 2:I was talking to a friend of mine, lee Pritchard, in Tasmania, who has started. They have just like Lee's talking about. They started a local Camino over 100 kilometres. People coming from Tasmania, people came from Australian mainland. Well, they're now launching a global virtual pilgrimage in January when we want to link people from every corner of the world, walking and connecting them virtually. And you'll walk at home and you'll share your experiences with people of the world, walking and connecting them virtually. And you'll walk at home and you'll share your experiences with people across the world.
Speaker 3:So in modern times.
Speaker 2:There's ways of doing this, but may I just say something. All I have to do is sit in the plaza of Radaio and see the joy of pilgrims arriving in tears of joy, in tears of relief, in tears of thanksgiving, embracing each other, the cyclists holding their cycles high, the pilgrims throwing down their rucksacks to run across and meet friends that they perhaps saw 100 kilometres back on the Camino. The power of this thing is still extremely potent and I believe it's growing.
Speaker 4:It's profound, I agree, and seeing the joy of people when they see the cathedral in front of them, it's just so amazing. It reminds every time reminds me of my very first Camino, and many people have profound experiences when they attend that Pilgrim's Mass for the first time. It's something that I think you cannot explain. It's something that is above the concept of thought, where you realize there is something deeply spiritual about the Camino.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 4:Let's talk a bit about the concept some people have about the Camino being a path of sacrifice, a path of pain and suffering. I'm hearing this from quite a few people that you have to go through the pain and it's always been a part of suffering, and I always tell people look, the Camino is also a path of self-care. You need to look after yourself. Don't do more than your body tells you to do. Take a break if your body tells you this is enough for today.
Speaker 2:I always think, Rhino, a little pain is all right, A lot of pain is not all right. Think, Rhino, a little pain is all right, A lot of pain is not all right. Now a friend of mine says you know, the Camino is not a walk in the park. It can be tough, especially in the first few days. And you know, I'm predicting my goddaughter's out there on the Camino Portuguese, and although she's very fit and young, she walked 35 kilometres yesterday. I have no doubt she'll feel that at some point today.
Speaker 2:And so in these early days our bodies need to get used to what we're doing. We're walking all day when we're not accustomed to doing that all day, every day. But we get used to it. And as long as you're prepared to listen to your body, if you get hot spots, stop, or the hot spots in your feet will develop into painful blisters, I assure you. I've had so many of them. They're to be avoided at all costs. But this is all part of the learning, isn't it? It's just like real life. It's just like the wee babies crawling around and bumping their head against the furniture. They only do it a couple of times times, then they don't do it again. So we listen to our bodies, stop, rest and gather our thoughts and gather our things together, and then we get up the next morning and start again.
Speaker 4:Yes, and why not take a bus for a day? If you can't continue walking, there's nothing telling no God telling you look, you have to keep on walking if your knees are shot and your feet are full of blisters.
Speaker 2:As long as you don't do that within the last 100 kilometres if you want to get the Compostela?
Speaker 4:Yes, well, I really tapped into something there, johnny, when I questioned the primary motivation of getting a Compostela, but what I merely wanted to trigger was a discussion on intention, because the Camino is so much more than getting a certificate. It is so multifaceted, especially if you've walked several routes, and the experience pilgrims have is so very different.
Speaker 2:Look, reino, there are no rules. There are no rules apart from the rules about getting the Compostela. If you want the Compostela, walk 100 kilometres, but apart from that, there are no rules. Of course, take a bus, take a day off, book into a five-star hotel, go to a Michelin-star restaurant or not, it doesn't. You know, I wrote this thing in one of my books. It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter whether you carry your rucksack or send it ahead. It doesn't matter whether you sleep in albergues, in a dorm of 30 strangers, or you're in a four-star hotel. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. What matters is that you walk the way to Santiago and you enjoy the experience with other pilgrims, and there are no Camino police there might be some people that think they are John.
Speaker 1:I want to add to the discussion that you know. You know, I've heard people say how you walk your Camino is how you live your life, and how you live your life is how you walk your Camino right, and I encourage people to push your boundaries a little bit. Think about how you're walking. It comes with that intention. I've met with a couple of pilgrims recently who have walked extremely long days. I'm talking 50, 60 kilometers and there seems to be sometimes this badge of honor that you know, oh, I walked 50 kilometers today and I did this, and you know, and I think, well, that's kind of how they're living their life at home.
Speaker 1:You know, they're just heads down, going fast and you know, moving through life at that speed and you know, maybe this Camino, they lost the opportunity to look up and slow down and to do something different, and so I want to encourage people to think about that. You know, I've heard a lot of recent stories like oh you know, I had nine blisters. Nine blisters. The doctor told me to take a day off, but my Camino family kept going and I didn't want to say goodbye to them. So I walked and guess what happened? That next day they couldn't even get out of bed.
Speaker 1:That is not listening to your body, and I think part of the Camino lesson is that learning to let go. It's that learning that you might have to say goodbye to Camino family members, and that's a lesson we need to learn in everyday life. And so those blisters are talking to you. They are telling you slow down. You know that you don't need to catch up with that family. Maybe you're going to make new family members, maybe you need to walk by yourself for a couple of days, right? So you need to listen to your body and I think that's the biggest guide.
Speaker 1:And you know, some of us are challenged, maybe to spend a night in a dorm. You know I'm getting to an age where I want to have my own bathroom. I don't want to have to climb up to a second bunk. That doesn't make me less of a pilgrim than if I spend every single night in a dormitory right. Everybody, through the generations of walking the Camino, have stayed at different types of accommodations. They've done it in different ways, and those same opportunities are open to all of us. It's about who you are as a pilgrim when you're walking. That's what matters.
Speaker 4:Absolutely, because and I've done this myself the first few days you carry just too much luggage in your backpack Every time and then you start dropping things as you go along, realizing you don't need all these things. And the other thing I find is that it's not so much the physical challenge. The real challenge many pilgrims have is the emotional roller coaster you go through, especially the first few days walking alone, and then stuff from many years suddenly sort of comes up and I've personally had recollections and dreams from way to my early childhood while walking the Camino which I have had nowhere else. So I would describe the Camino as a fast track self-development course.
Speaker 1:A friend likened it to. You know, a 10-day walk on a Camino is like two years of therapy. Maybe, you know, because it's really come up and you start processing. And you know, sometimes I wonder, when I find myself distracting myself by walking faster, always talking to people while I'm walking or whatever, like I question myself what are you trying to avoid looking at in yourself, lee? You know, get by yourself and process maybe what's come up in my life, because every Camino is something different, isn't it? You know there's something new in your life, there's new problems you're dealing with and for me, I need that quiet sometimes to process that. But I know when I'm distracting myself that maybe I don't want to look at some of those things in my life that I need to look at. That ever come up for you, johnny.
Speaker 2:You set me thinking there. And there's a. There's a pilgrim in Bill Bennett's new film, the Way, my Way, ivan, who's an Italian pilgrim, and Bill says to him what's a true pilgrim? And he says a true pilgrim is someone who walks with their heart in their hands. And of course, what he means is that we walk with an open mind, with an open heart, and we let the Camino touch our hearts. So we go, we experience this wonderful alchemy of periods of deep, deep reflection in the most gorgeous scenery.
Speaker 2:We see the Maseta, we see the Camino stretching out before us, and whenever I see that, I realise that I'm just a little speck in God's universe. I'm not the important person that I always like to think of as I'm just a wee speck in the universe. And of course, we meet other pilgrims and at at times there is profound sharing between pilgrims, whether we meet for half a day walking, or whether we meet for three days walking, or whether we're walking with family or partners for a month, where real, true human communication happens. And I believe all of this together, letting the community touch your heart, reflecting deeply, sharing with other people, is what causes the transformational change which many of us experience.
Speaker 4:And I firmly believe that the universe, or God, speaks often through other people. I had an epiphany when a pilgrim said to me there's a big difference between an inconvenience and a problem in life. And I said, oh, you're so right, because I was so preoccupied with my own issues. And then when I looked at other pilgrims, when I heard their stories and I thought, no, you don't have any problems at all.
Speaker 2:A pilgrim said to me on the Camino fairly recently do you pray? And the truth of the matter is I always found prayer difficult, until somebody said to me why. John, why don't? You say oh God, if there is a God, please help me and let me talk to you. And the key phrase for me was if there is a God, because I'm the great doubter.
Speaker 2:Anyway, on that Camino, I started talking to God now the truth of the matter, rhino is and I've started talking about this more and more as I got older. As I look back through my life, at all the ups and downs, I have have been carried forward always to a place of safety. When life was at its most difficult, I was carried forward to a place of safety, and I believe that's still happening to me. And I think walking on the Camino is an opportunity to we talk about the thin places, those places where we sense there is certainly something beyond humanity, and if we open our hearts or have our hearts in our hand and simply talk to the divine, Taking this time out for solitude and self-reflection, which we seldom have in our daily routine.
Speaker 4:As you just pointed out earlier, lee, we are so preoccupied with our devices and with those distractions from the external world. For me, the camino has become a point of survival. I need, I need my annual Camino every year Just because of what you just said, johnny to reconnect with the divine, to reconnect with our purpose and our meaning in life.
Speaker 1:And I think when we slow down we get to see these little miracles that are happening in our lives every single day, right, and the Camino it seems so much easier to see because it's quiet and we're quiet, but it can reconnect us back to the hope that that's happening in everyday life John's talking about. You know, we're being taken care of, Things are being provided. It's not just on the Camino, it's not just a Camino providing right. Those things are happening in everyday life. It's just we're missing it because we're so busy. And I think when we come to the Camino we begin to. Maybe that hope rejuvenates within us, right, and we realize all the great things that do happen often in our lives. Of course there are tough moments and there are things. That's life, that is life, but right alongside the bad or the good, you know, we sometimes just need to see them to feel that gratitude again for even the smallest of joys that we have in our lives.
Speaker 4:Yes, indeed. Let's get to those listeners who've never walked the Camino. What advice can we give to people who say to you, I've always wanted to walk the Camino, where do I start?
Speaker 1:Well, when I hear that I say the seed is planted, you will. You will walk. It's just a matter of time. And I think the greatest thing that I would tell someone is just come and walk. You know everything's going to work out, you don't? You know for me, you don't have to worry. Get a pair of shoes that fit, get a pair of shoes that work. Get a backpack that works for you. Get the right equipment for you. Under pack, please under pack. Every time I end up getting rid of something, meddling something back, wishing I hadn't packed as much, because I never need everything I pack, and to this day I'd like to say I had it down to a science, but I don't. So that's something I'm still learning. But I think the greatest thing we can say is come and walk, just walk it, it'll all work out. Trust. Trust that everything that you will need you will have.
Speaker 2:You will find it will walk for a day and then understand that the community of Santiago is simply a series of day walks all joined together, and don't overthink this, don't overplan it and just take as little as possible. And you know I'm very proud of my goddaughter. She's, she's got four and a half kilograms in her rucksack. That's without water, so Lee will be seeing her when she arrives here in Santiago, and that's that's the message, that it's like life we need very little to be happy. And that's the lesson of the communion. Yes, yes.
Speaker 4:I think that's the perfect closing message. We have touched on a lot of topics today, but I think the central message here is the Camino is still open for everyone. It's not overcrowded as all the media tries to tell us. There are many alternative routes that you can walk if you seek that solitude, to have that divine connection, and if you're seeking social connections. Of course, the Camino Francis is the route you want to take, but there are so many lovely routes you can walk on the Camino, all of them leading to Santiago. I want to thank you both in this respect for all the work that you two are doing for the Camino, the guidance you're giving to people and the advice you're giving to so many people, and all the time and effort you're putting into the Camino.
Speaker 1:Well, that's kind to say, and I want to take this moment to say John, here we're looking at the man that has set the pilgrim, that has set the gold bar standard on this and that is giving back to the community. That is, after you've walked, coming back and giving back to this great community of pilgrims, and I think John has set a fine example. If anyone's looking for what we can do after our Caminos, look to the work that John has done over and over again and I think that if we all follow that lead, the world would be a better place.
Speaker 2:Behave yourself. Well, I've done a little bit compared. I believe that the Caminos de Santiago is the only bank in the world where it's guaranteed that you will get out more than you put in. So all you have to do is walk it, and the pleasure is mine.
Speaker 4:Thank you both, yes.
Speaker 3:Thank you. You've been listening to Living to Be with Raino Gevers, a podcast aimed to inspire you in becoming your authentic self.
Speaker 1:Well, that's it for this week's show. Thanks to Rayno Gevers for allowing us to rebroadcast the episode with Johnny Walker and myself. We really appreciate it. Rayno and Pilgrims, thanks for listening today. And pilgrims, thanks for listening today. Remember all of our shows from Camino News Update, as well as many interviews from the Camino Cafe podcast are on our YouTube channel, so check that out. It's the Camino Cafe podcast and pilgrims, we can't wait to see you next time. Please take good care, ciao, thank you.