132 - Connection, Clarity, Creativity: a Singer-Songwriter's Camino Journey with Staffan Wester

Staffan Website

https://epk.recordunion.com/wes

Staffan Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61570463024061&ref=1

Staffan Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/wes_weswebb/

Staffan Spotify 

https://open.spotify.com/artist/01YlKlKwoNGUo1bL7ytOS6?si=noQTrjWEQ96oS3o_jQbgRQ

Songs featured on the show:

Hearts on the Table

https://open.spotify.com/track/387u6NnjrOr5hOw9GpGh31?si=a136eb76af674da3

Dear Lester

https://open.spotify.com/track/48CYwJCFMzdtZQb7GTBpCr?si=4147bec847314eb6

To Join a Camino Singer Songwriter Retreat with Dr. Kristina Jacobsen:

https://www.singmebackhomesongwriting.com/santiago

Podcast with Kristina

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/110-melodies-of-the-soul-a-singers-journey/id1562037974?i=1000647863435

All songs played with permission from Dr. Kristina's Retreat Final Concert and from the artists on the professional recordings. 

Transcript

Welcome And Retreat Context

Leigh 0:03

Hey Pilgrim family, welcome to the Camino Cafe Podcast. I'm Leigh Brennan, your host. Today's interview is with Staffan Wester. He is a singer, songwriter, and musician based in Sweden. Staffan went on a camino with Dr. Kristina Jacobsen. She leads Singer-Songwriter Retreats right on the Camino. I suggest after this interview, maybe check out the interview I did with her back in March of 2024. It's episode number 110. And during that interview, we talked about how she became inspired to begin offering these types of retreats on the Camino after her very first Camino. She's offering two more of these retreats in 2026. They are in April and in October. There's a link in the show notes about the upcoming retreats if you want to check it out. Okay, so let's get to the interview. Here's Staffan. I think you are definitely the very first pilgrim that I've interviewed that lives in Sweden. So I wondered. So welcome. Thank you for agreeing to be here. I thought maybe we would start off with um tell us a little bit about your background and what life is like for you in Sweden at this moment.

Staffan’s Life In Sweden And Music Roots

Psychology Practice And Creative Work

Staffan 1:20

Okay. Thank you. So nice to be here. Yeah, Sweden, a cold country at this point of year, at least. It's uh I'm living down south, uh, the very south of Sweden in Malmö, just opposite Copenhagen. And uh it's very humid here. So during the winter, even if it's like zero degrees Celsius, it's freezing cold. It doesn't matter how you dress. When I was young, I lived far up north, uh, and it was like minus 30 degrees, but it was dry, so it was perfectly okay. You could dress in in the right way, and then you could be outdoors. So that's where I'm. But I'm born in Stockholm, the capital of Sweden, which is like like uh 60, no, not 60, 600 kilometers north of here. Uh and um yeah, music has kind of been the the central point of my life from from from the beginning. My my father uh was uh um well he was he was not a professional musician, but he was playing in his free time. Uh he played the piano, he played the accordion. So I'm kind of grown up with music in the house, and and he took me along when when when he were when he was playing at parties and such stuff, he he he brought me along at an early age, and uh I I tried to find out how to play the bass, how to play the guitar with him, and and that was that was a fantastic school. And and then later on I met a music teacher at school who really got me started in in playing. Uh the reason why I'm down in Stockholm is I I I left when I was I left Stockholm when I was um 19, I think, yeah. And I I went to a school um in in in and uh just outside of Malmö, and and um I got a girlfriend and I started playing with people in Malmö, so I decided to stay, and and that's where I've stayed since. So um, yeah, it's it's um uh and I I to to say something about what's what's happening these days. I'm I'm uh I'm a musician like like half time. I uh write songs and I play a lot together with my wife, who is a full-time musician, playing in different settings. Uh and and um I'm also uh psychologist and a CBT therapist, having a um a private clinic for like two days a week, uh and actually mostly musicians and artists and and people working within the the cultural field, so to say, which is very nice as as I have a lot of experience. Uh I've been freelancing as a musician earlier in my life for like 10 years. So I kind of specialized in that field.

Leigh 4:34

So fascinating. Sounds really interesting.

Staffan 4:37

That is it. Yeah, yeah, it's I I really enjoy it. And uh two kids, they're grown up now, uh, 21 and 24. My son just moved to Paris, he's 21, and my my daughter lives with her boyfriend just like 20 kilometers from here.

Leigh 4:55

So lucky you.

Staffan 4:57

Yeah.

Leigh 4:58

Had you walked, like is it was walking a part of your life doing any other kind of long distance hiking or anything like that prior to going on the Camino?

Past Treks And Pull Toward Pilgrimage

Staffan 5:09

Yeah, uh a few times. And it it's always been something that has attracted me, always something that I've been thinking of doing. And the few times I've done it, it's really it meant a lot to me. It it it really has given me um new experiences uh that I brought with me after that. I went to to Nepal in that must be 1999, yeah, just before for 2000. Uh and I spent I spent uh a month there. I was curious also to to travel on my own. Uh I was uh I was 37 by then. I I had never traveled alone, so I was really curious to do that. Uh and and I was walking like 14 days at the foot of the Himalayas, Mount Everest. Um, so that that that's my my kind of big, big first experience of of walking uh uh a path. I mean there were there were a lot lots of people walking there, so so I I I met a lot of fantastic people uh also. That was yeah, that was great. And I've done a few after that, a few, few walks for a few days uh with with uh together with friends. So yeah.

Leigh 6:37

So how did you find out about the Camino?

Staffan 6:40

I met uh Kristina Jacobsen uh two years before I went on on the Camino. Uh we we met on a songwriter's retreat here in Sweden on Gotland, which is an island on the east side of Sweden. And and um that's a fantastic retreat, also. We're not walking, we're staying, but in a beautiful um landscape just by the water. And uh I I the I was there for two years, and the first year uh I think it was the last day. I had not been writing with with Kristina. We were not teamed up, but but there was some connection. So the last morning of the retreat, we had breakfast together, and and we we really connected and started talking there. So next year, when we met there again, we we did write together, and she told me also about this uh retreats uh along the Camino that she was arranging. So I I I I think I just by impulse directly said, I want to go. Really? Yeah, it was so clear. That's that's yeah.

Leigh 7:53

So you decide to go on this Camino retreat with Kristina, and you guys walked in October of 2024.

Staffan 8:01

Yes.

Discovering The Camino Via Christina

Leigh 8:02

What kinds of expectations and fears and things like that ran through your mind? Because I feel like it's one thing to say, I'm gonna go walk a Camino, any long distance path. And I think this added a whole new layer because you weren't only going to just walk, but you were also going to sing songs, do song things. So did you feel any vulnerability or any fears as you got ready to go?

Fears, Curiosity, And Co‑Writing Nerves

Staffan 8:33

Yeah, definitely. Um fears, but but fears uh teamed up with curiosity and and and and uh yeah, definitely. I mean it's it's I think it's it's a vulnerable uh situation to do a thing uh like that, but but it's it's uh it's also something that I I'm very uh curious about, and I I my experiences are that that it can be very uh developing. I mean um being in a group and especially being away from home, not doing anything of the usual stuff, or yeah, or or working with with with what what kind of is in your identity and etc. It's it's um uh things happen in those situations. And and I mean, okay, I have a lot of knowledge about group processes as being a psychologist, but I mean that doesn't mean that you're immune towards what's happening, it's it can be really strong. So but I I I wouldn't say that the fears wouldn't they would never stop me because it's the curiosity is is is um maybe maybe stronger. Uh so so uh I was really looking forward, but I I have to say that uh co-writing uh when it comes to songwriting, uh I mean I I tried it like a few times before, like I told you about the retreat at Gotland, but it was kind of new for me. So so that was maybe what I most of all was was maybe a little worried about how was it going to be to write songs together with somebody that you you do not know?

Leigh 10:27

Yeah, that that's a really good point. So I'm curious. Um as you were talking about that, you know, a lot of our best thinkers in the world, you know, if you look at like Beethoven, Dickens, even Steve Jobs, a lot of those people have said and used walking as a way to spur creativity, to time to think. So I'm just curious, how did that play out for you? Did you find that the Camino was helpful in your creativity, your songwriting? What came up in it?

Why Walking Unlocks Creativity

Staffan 11:06

Yeah, I would definitely say that that it's it's it's helpful, that it's nurturing creativity. I I I guess it's a lot about stepping out of what you your your your usual daily life. And I mean being on a camino, you're you're you're uh you're walking with when you got your your backpack with with just the essential stuff you need. The focus is on going from point A to point B and um uh staying dry enough and getting food and and maybe finding company if you do not have that. And so it's I think it's down to basics. It's down you it's like connecting to the basics of life, what it's about. Food, shelter, company, and and and and moving further. So so I mean leaving all things behind that that are are are uh just your habitual daily everyday life living that makes it I I I think that makes it easier to connect with with uh what's really important. Or things that you are you are are are trying to understand or or or or yeah, wonderful.

Leigh 12:40

What surprised you the most about walking on the Camino?

Staffan 12:45

Hmm yeah that's uh that's a that's a good question. Um I I I really loved it and and I I think I I I don't know what what an answer that is, but I think I I I ask myself why why have why has it taken me so long to to get out here again? Because this I I mean like I said uh to you earlier, it it's been something that I've been thinking about over the years. I really I really like to to go out walking. Uh and and and and uh when it comes to to uh Compostela de Santiago, I I have friends who've been walking there and they have told me their little bit of their stories. And I every time I hear something like that, I get, wow, I want to do this. Yeah. So I guess I've been busy doing a lot of stuff and working and so forth. But but uh when Kristina then told me, okay, this is a possibility, that I was that's why I so directly just said, I want to go.

Camino Surprises And Saying Yes

Leigh 13:56

Yeah, yeah. That's so interesting, isn't it, that we're so attracted to it, but yet it takes sometimes um something else to prompt us to finally make that decision to go. I I find that so interesting. I think for a lot of people, like it can be a sacrifice in many ways, you know. Like what else aren't you going to do so that you can make time to do it? Or, you know, what for you do you think was a sacrifice in order to be able to have that time and to go and do this now?

Staffan 14:28

Well, as being a freelancing musician and and having my own practice uh as a psychologist, I mean it's it's it's kind of easy for me to to once I've made a decision, it it's it's not a big problem to to reserve time to to go. So it's not a sacrifice in that way. And my and I mean my kids are grown up, and and uh my wife is really understanding and and very supporting. She she she also thought this sounded like a great idea. Uh so so um not not really a big sacrifice, it is it's just a matter of a question, it was more a question of just making my mind up and then doing it.

Leigh 15:18

Yeah. What do we say to people? I think that there's there's a maybe a seed planted about the comino. And then it just has to kind of sit for a while until it's really the right time for you to go. And this sounds like it was the perfect time for you to go. Yeah, I I would I would guess so, yeah.

Staffan 15:35

That sounds reasonable, definitely.

Voice Memo: Meeting His 15‑Year‑Old Self

Leigh 15:38

So in this retreat, you walked, I think it was with 10 other pilgrims, and you guys were so great about leaving me messages while you were walking. Sometimes it was while you were uh working on a song or so what. And I was really touched in particular about a couple of the messages that you left for me. And I wanted to talk about them because I think they really brought up some special themes and I and I've really thought about them for some time. So I want to play the first one um that really stuck with me, and it was from, I believe, your day four was when you were. Well, I'm gonna let everybody hear the voice recording so they can hear your own words, and then let's talk about what was going on at the moment.

Staffan 16:30

Thursday and the fourth day of walking the camino with songs of Santiago. Fantastic people, a lot of warmth, a lot of talking and making music together. Very welcoming, very nurturing. And it's very intense, and something made me choose to walk by myself today. And uh I got company with a 15-year-old boy. The 15-year-old boy that I once was. And uh somehow I needed to have a talk with him and yeah, give him some understanding and recognition, telling him that he's okay and he can he can go alongside of me. Sometimes I'll have to gently with a warm hand tell him not to pop up and try to get whatever he is missing. And I'm just telling him it's okay. You're alright. You can walk alongside of me. And the fantastic thing happened just a few minutes ago that I met this French man. We were talking for a while, very nice, uh, and I even managed to talk in French for a short while with him. Wow. And then he told me his reason for being on the Camino, and that was because when he was 15 years old, he met a much older man who was very enthusiastic about the Camino. And so this Frenchman made a promise to himself that one day I will walk the Camino. And now he's, I think he was 75, and he's doing it 60 years after the promise. So I guess both of us were in company today with our 15-year-old selves. Very nice. That's it for today. Thanks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I can remember, I can remember that day. Now when we're listening to it, yeah.

Reflection On Vulnerability And Group Dynamics

Leigh 19:09

What what comes up for you hearing that message? That was October 2024, and here we sit in 2026, January 30th. How how does that hit you when you hear it?

Camino Magic And Shared Stories

Staffan 19:28

Yeah, it's it's um I'm trying to remember how that came to be. I think there was something, I don't think it was an actual prompt for the walk, but it was something that we had been talking about, the possibility, I guess, to connect to to um to yourself in in earlier days. And I think that just stuck with me. And and um I think I I I I I decided, like I said in in this audio clip, I decided to walk on myself. And I think there was uh I mean we've been talking about the the uh that it can be quite intense to to be be meet a group of people and to to walk and live with them, and and and also in this case writing songs together for like like um more than a week, I think it was 10 days. And and uh so I I just needed to be alone uh for one day. And and I think that's a good thing to to to get perspective on on what's happening, yeah. In in in the group. And I just to make it uh short and and and kind of clear what I think that was about, it it was something about this 15-year-old part of me uh wanting wanting to be uh to be seen, to be heard, to be recognized and and and and and um have a uh be in the central centrum of the group. Uh and and uh of course very understandable uh to want that, but but as as more grown-ups we we know that we we must in in in some way in a group uh behave in a way that makes the the both the group and yourself work. And and and so so I I think I I I yeah, I I understood there was something probably that had happened the day before when I felt something um maybe that I wanted to to have more more attention or whatever. And I could relate that to myself as a 15 year old. And I could have some some understanding also for why I why I needed that or why I wanted that when I was 15 years old, and that it was kind of still still with me. It's okay. Yeah, what a powerful moment to experience. Yeah, it was. I remember it. It was really so yeah. And I can remember that clearly when I hear your your the audio clip here. And and and uh yeah, I was I was I was uh I was a very small boy when I was like 15. I was I was definitely what what we sometimes uh call a late bloomer. Ah okay. I I had a great I had a great time in those years, 14, 15, 16 years of age. Uh I it was all about music and it it was just exploding. But I was I was uh very late in my development and that that was kind of a struggle for me. I had a really good time. I I was I was meeting a lot of friends and and playing, and I was I was uh I was on stage uh at that uh that early, but still feeling kind of uh different or awkward. Yeah so that was a struggle uh for me. I and I think it was things like that showed up on the on the Camino in the group.

Leigh 23:36

So yeah, wow. Would you say it was a healing moment for you for this 15-year-old to finally be seen and heard in this kind of way?

Staffan 23:49

Yeah, I think that's uh that's a reasonable way to put it. Yeah, it was a yeah, it felt very good. Yeah, definitely.

Voice Memo: Writing “Hearts On The Table”

Leigh 23:57

Wow, what a great meditation idea or prompt for anyone that's walking to go back um, you know, and examine maybe our childhoods or some period of time in our life. Yeah, or more than likely it's just gonna come up naturally, maybe something that hasn't been seen or or um dealt with for some time. What really struck me that day as I heard your message was first, I loved you talking to this 15-year-old boy still within you. But then the synchronicity, the you know, sometimes we call it Camino magic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? That all of a sudden comes this pilgrim, he's not a part of your group. No, you've chosen this day to walk by yourself, you've already been doing this exercise on planned, it's just happening. And this pilgrim, yeah.

Staffan 24:54

This is that was really I I just dropped my jaw. And and and uh yeah, he's telling this uh and and and we could we could share that we were both um had uh doing something that in in that moment related to ourselves as 15 years old. Um yeah, that was that was very that was kind of magic. I agree, yeah.

Men Talking Openly And Safe Spaces

Leigh 25:26

Yeah, I mean I've got chills right now, and I've heard that package numerous times. But I feel it's like one of those pinch me moments. I mean the fact that he was so specific that it was his 15-year-old self, right? Like when he first heard about it, you know, it's just yeah, yeah, I think it's a little bit of Camino magic, and um I think about the healing opportunity for the both of you in that situation, um the sharing, the camaraderie that occurred at that point. Um pretty remarkable. Did any songs come from that or any uh any creative things arise from that moment for you?

Staffan 26:11

Uh I'm not sure especially, but I mean I I I do write songs very much uh out of myself. It it's not it's not uh totally uh what do you say biographer, uh, but it's it's it's but I I I always more or less write out of my own experience. I I think that's very common as a I mean being being in the genre of singer-songwriters is it's most often uh something at least connected to an experience that you had, and then maybe you can make extend the story. Um so so I I I really I have written a few songs that connect to my childhood, definitely. Yeah.

Leigh 27:06

Alright, well, let's move on to uh another point in the walk where you left me a message.

Recording And Performing With Felix

Staffan 27:13

Day five on Songs of Santiago. Today I got into a very special and fantastic songwriting process. I was teamed up with Felix and uh we got this prompt place. And um we went to a cafe and sat down and had a coffee. We started talking about the song we were going to write, uh, but we also got into a very open and sincere conversation about ourselves and what was happening in our lives right now, back home, but also emotionally within us what was happening now, being on a journey like this. And the conversation was just flowing, and gradually it slipped into a songwriting process. We wrote down words and phrases out of what we were talking about, and we suddenly realized that oh, but this is a lot of material. And um I think we wrote the song in uh in about two hours. Uh it was called By for Now, but for now it was called, and it was kind of several layers or levels being present at the same time. I mean, we were having this fantastic conversation, but the song was also about having a conversation man to man by the coffee table. Um, and I don't think I ever had a process like this. I'm rather new with co-labs. I've been writing songs on my own for many years, but only the two last years has been co-writing. Um and it was so flowing all the time, and it really learned me a lot. Great, I'm really looking forward to continue this and to write a new song tomorrow. Good night. Yeah, Felix, that was that was uh that day was really that was super nice day, and and um I got I really got to know Felix that day. He's such such a nice person. And he's I mean he's living in in New Mexico and he he's a very busy musician. He he's uh performing several days a week. He's a hardworking musician really, but very, very genuine uh in his uh in his music. That's so it's great.

Forgiveness Song With Jane

Leigh 30:00

Yeah, well, I hope to have Felix on the show as well. Yeah, that sounds so this moment for me in listening when I heard that message that day, I didn't know your background, okay. Right. And uh I just knew you were on the singer-songwriter retreat, and you were on the Camino, and I had been hearing Felix's messages every day, hearing yours. And then all of a sudden I get this message about this experience with the two of you, right? And my first thoughts, and even now hearing it again as a woman, uh as someone who probably would love to be a therapist, right? But when I heard this for the first time, and even now, I was so struck by what I think the Camino brings to um every pilgrim that walks. It brings an opportunity to potentially share your story and to be heard. But in particular on your message that you left, I was so struck that you know, we always hear that men don't have a lot of people just to talk with. You know, I think stereotypically we find, or at least in you know, out in the world, we think that women seem to have more support from a friendship basis to share, and we tend to talk more with one another, but men don't seem to get that kind of opportunity. And when I heard this message, I thought, oh my gosh, here's two guys out on the Camino having this talk. And you later changed actually the title of the song to Hearts on the Table.

Staffan 31:45

True, true. Yeah, and we recorded it, yeah.

Leigh 31:49

And then you came back and you guys recorded the song, which I'll let you tell this story. But you know, now that I know that you are also a therapist, I mean, come on, let's let's break this down. Like, tell me your thoughts about all of this. Like two men getting to share. Uh, you know, what does walking do to help us be able to share our stories? I'm I'm just so curious to hear your take on all this now hearing this message again.

Releasing And Returning To The Song

Staffan 32:18

Well, you were asking about vulnerability earlier on, uh and and and and um I I guess we both felt uh safe in the possibility of uh being in our vulnerabilities and and to to share uh our life situations uh and and and and uh probably also uh a longing of for for doing that. And and uh and I mean this day we were giving the opportunity to K, okay, here you guys are gonna write a song, so you got the day here. So we were not walking that day, and we could just decide whatever, and and and we went to this cafe and and sat down and and and um I think we both felt felt safe. And and once again, being in a situation like that where everything in the normal daily life is kind of gone, it's taken away. Yeah, I mean, either you can you can take the chance uh and and and and uh be in that moment and show yourself, or or if it feels scary, you can always hide away. But I I we we we did connect very easily and and and uh yeah, I think definitely that that's one of the reasons why I I'm sure I'm gonna go back on a Camino walk, whether it's the songwriting retreat or not, because those sincere open moments when you connect to somebody, it yeah, that's that's kind of fantastic, I think. Yeah.

Leigh 34:21

Now so the day before was the day that you reconnected with your 15th.

Staffan 34:26

Yeah. No. So I maybe, yeah, maybe I was it that that helped up that I was in I was in connection with with myself and with my vulnerability, and it was okay.

Leigh 34:39

Do you remember what section what section of the Camino you were on on that day for? Was that after you guys had reached Crustaferro or was it before?

Ongoing Collaborations With Kristina

Staffan 34:47

Oh, let's see, let's see. I'm not sure, but I think it was right after it must have been. It was very close. Either it was right after or right before. I I I have have to say I've forgotten some of the names of the villages that we stayed in.

Leigh 35:09

Yeah, yeah.

Staffan 35:10

I think the the day that I was passing Crustaferro was the day that I was in company of my my 15-year-old. I I think that makes sense, yeah. Yeah.

Leigh 35:21

So you guys end up writing the song together called Hearts on the Table. You later perform it on the retreat itself.

Staffan 35:30

Yeah.

Leigh 35:31

And then post-retreat, you end up meeting back up together and you actually record the song professionally.

Staffan 35:39

Yeah.

Leigh 35:40

So share with us a little bit about how all that process came about and the feelings that maybe you had on retreat when you were singing it together, and then when you actually recorded it professionally.

House Concerts And Future Plans

Staffan 35:51

Yeah. I I I think we we we both really strongly felt that this this is a song that meant a lot to us, and and we got some some very nice feedback from the other participants when we were performing it and so forth. So we we we we already on the Camino made a decision that we this we have to record this song. I'm having a uh a recording studio, a smaller recording studio at home here in Sweden. So I started working on the song there and and I sent some material over to Felix. I mean it's so easy to collaborate digitally, sending tracks and so forth back and forth. So so Felix, I was I was recording uh the bass of it here, and then I sent it over to Felix, and in in New Mexico he recorded his vocals and his harmonica and sent it back uh so then I could produce uh the song here. And uh in the summer, uh last summer of 25, we we we uh Felix was coming over to Europe and uh we we met up for like 10 days. Uh we went to I met him in Berlin and we went to Holland and we went to Vienna. Uh and we we actually had some some uh some small gigs there also. So we we we performed the song there also live. That was super nice. So so um yeah, I I really uh got a very good friend on on this Camino. Uh I guess that's something that I mean you making a podcast about the Camino, I guess that's quite common that people meet up and and and and they really become close and and find friendships that that goes on.

Leigh 37:50

Yeah, because that was the first time you and Felix had met, right?

Staffan 37:53

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I I had no idea who he was before.

Leigh 37:58

Yeah, a real bonding moment that uh has gone on to turn into a friendship. So that's really beautiful.

Staffan 38:05

It is, yeah, that's super nice.

Leigh 38:08

Now, for those of you wondering about these songs, uh, if you stick around to the end of the episode, you're gonna hear a recording of the song by Staffan and Felix. So um be sure to stay all the way to the end to hear their song, Hearts on the Table. I want to talk about another song that you wrote uh with someone else, and it was about forgiveness. You wrote a song with Jane Corns about forgiveness, and you guys performed this at your final concert when the retreat was ending. But forgiveness is often a topic for folks who walk the Camino to give forgiveness to ourselves or to someone else. Sometimes we don't even plan it, it just happens. So when I heard your recording and both of you had left messages uh about it. Talk to me a little bit about how forgiveness came up for you if it did during the Camino.

Advice For Creatives Considering A Camino

Staffan 39:04

It was really nice writing with with Jane. Um you know, we we do we uh on uh on this retreat uh and many of many uh songwriting retreats, it we we do not choose who we write with, but we are being teamed up by the leader. And and and uh I think that's good because then then then you might not end up with the most obvious one that you kind of share music uh ideas with, or so it's uh so so uh uh I'm not sure how the theme of forgiveness came in. Maybe it was part of a prompt. I'm not sure of that. Um, but we were talking a bit. I think we we had lunch and we were talking about what kind of song we were gonna write. And and uh Jane is a very experienced writer, she's been writing books and stuff, and she's I think she she also runs uh arranges retreats with um for writing, both songwriting and other kind of writings. Um so we were talking a bit and then she said, Okay, let's have a break here for an hour or two, and I'm I'm gonna I have some ideas in my head and I'm gonna go and write them down. So so she did did most of the of the lyrics on her own, and then she she she uh I think we all we had some music lady already. So I but I took her lyrics and I started writing a melody and chords and such things around it, and then we tried it out in different ways. It was it was yeah, there was uh a songwriting process that really worked well, also.

Leigh 40:54

Well, that song uh I listened to it several times.

Staffan 40:58

Okay, yeah.

Leigh 41:00

Have you guys thought about releasing it? Because I I really enjoy the song. I I it really touched me. You know, a lot about forgiveness and relationships.

Staffan 41:08

Yeah.

Leigh 41:09

So you may record it?

Best Memories And Healthy Groups

Staffan 41:11

Yeah, we have done uh a first recording, and I think I think Jane has used that uh in in Australia. I think she kind of pressed uh she was performing with her husband, who's a guitar player and musician. Uh they were performing it on on a festival, I know, and and she wanted to to press uh a CD to have and give to people at that festival. Um but we we we stay in contact and and uh and so there's there's still an idea of making uh a more more uh worked through uh recording of it. It's a great song. I I keep returning to it myself uh and now and then uh and I I there's really something in there that I I I like.

Leigh 42:01

Yeah, well, you have a big fan here of that song, so I I enjoyed it.

Staffan 42:05

That's great to hear. So then there's one more strong reason for doing a proper recording of it, yeah.

How The Camino Changed His Outlook

Leigh 42:11

All right, I'll play a bit of that song at the end as well. Um, of course, we don't have a professional recording of that, that's going to be from the end of your retreat when you did your final concert. So one of the things I'm loving about talking to you today, I'm loving so many parts of our conversation, but I'm really loving how you have stayed so connected with this group. And when I reached out to you and said, hey, let's, you know, I really want to put something together with these messages you guys left me, but I'm having struggling to do that. I think I got to go back and just talk to you individually. And you were so agreeable to do so. And while we were talking about that, I'm going through your social media, which everyone, I will have links uh to Staffan's uh Instagram, Facebook website, Spotify, all the things. So you're gonna be able to find his music after this interview. So don't worry, you'll be able to connect with him. But as I'm doing it, I'm flipping through your Instagram, right? And all of a sudden I see Kristina suddenly in Sweden singing with you. And you guys have a song coming out, right? And so I've already said that I'm a huge fan of Kristina's. I've seen her perform live when I was at the American Pilgrims on the Comino gathering two years ago. And I've interviewed Kristina a couple of times. So I'm a huge fan of her. So when I got to see the two of you singing together, I was like, like they're still connected. And now I'm finding out that you're still connected with Felix, you're still connected with Jane. I mean, that is such a powerful part, I think, of Camino and retreats in itself. But let's talk a little bit about uh this collaboration with Kristina because she just released a song called Letter to Lester, which I'm enjoying so much. It's already on Spotify, so I'll have a link directly to that song. But Can you just share with us how that came about and how you're feeling about these connections that you know you continue to have? I mean, you and Kristina met a couple of years ago on retreat.

Staffan 44:10

And yeah, yeah.

Leigh 44:11

Wow, now you're professionally recording together. That's pretty cool.

Staffan 44:15

That yeah, yeah, it's great. I really enjoy collaborating with Kristina, and she she's uh such a nice person. And and she she uh she was uh here. Um me and my wife, uh, we are uh arranging uh home concerts in our uh living room now that our children have moved away and we're sitting in a kind of a big house, and okay, what do we do now? But why not have concerts at home, also? So it's more like private concerts. We'd like we can have like an audience of 55 people approximately. Uh so Kristina was here now in in December, the 13th of December. Uh and and and she she she played some of her songs, and I joined her, and then we performed Dear Lester, the song that we wrote together, also that was super nice. Uh we we wrote that song uh uh on the retreat that I I was talking about on Gotland uh in in in earlier in uh in in 2024. So that was uh uh like half a year before uh I I went to the Camino.

Leigh 45:27

Wow. So was Kristina leading that retreat, that first one you went to, or was she someone that was attending?

Staffan 45:34

She was just attending it.

Leigh 45:36

Just attending it. So you first met up as attendees? Yeah, true. Wow, and so dear Lester began to take shape there.

Gratitude, Perspective, And Closing

Staffan 45:44

Yeah, yeah. And it's like you probably uh uh uh have understood, it it's it's it's uh it's it's a story from Kristina about a person she knew uh uh when when she was living in another place in in in New Mexico. Uh and and uh so it's a story about an old man uh sitting in a wheelchair that that she she she uh she got to know uh and and uh and then they really never said goodbye, so that's why she's writing him a letter in this form.

Leigh 46:29

Um it's a beautiful song, really beautiful. Well done.

Staffan 46:35

Yeah, I think he he meant a lot to her uh at that time of life, so it's yeah.

Leigh 46:43

Wow. So looking back, we're gonna kind of I guess come to a close.

Staffan 46:50

I think I could talk to you forever, but uh I know not super nice to talk, so I I'm in no hurry.

Leigh 46:58

Okay, good, good. Well, then let me say, I I love this idea of the concerts at your house. I didn't realize it was at your house, and the footage is beautiful. It's just wonderful. What a cool idea.

Song Lineup And Episode Wrap

Staffan 47:09

I'm I'm I actually I'm actually going. We we we we we had some text messages just just uh yesterday and today, actually, because we're planning on me going to she's in Helsinki now for two years, working at the university, and and she's been doing some music there also and performing. So I'm gonna go there um either now in in springtime or in in September. Um and we're planning on on writing something together again and maybe maybe doing some kind of performance also. So yeah, so cool.

Leigh 47:46

Okay, so I I want to make sure we talk we talk about maybe just a couple more topics before we before we end. I'm wondering for other folks who uh have a creative impulse, maybe they're singer-songwriters, maybe they're book writers, maybe they're whatever it their uh calling is. I wonder if you have any tips or things you'd want to share with somebody, maybe that hasn't walked a Camino, and how you think by walking a Camino or possibly going to one of Kristina's future songwriting retreats, how would that possibly help them in their creativity and in their growth even as a person?

Staffan 48:30

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I I I guess it, I mean, if if we're talking about somebody who who maybe hasn't done that so much or been thinking about doing it for a long time, I guess the starting point is is to to uh uh I mean taking it seriously and making a decision. Okay, this is something that obviously I'm I'm I want to do, I'm longing for doing it. So just taking it seriously and understanding that this this must mean something for me, and it's important to do this. Uh I guess that's a starting point, and then then going to a retreat, writing retreat of of any kind, I think it's a good starting point because then there's um I mean a retreat, a writing retreat is is about writing, so so you you will it it will it will give you um uh plenty of time and space to just try out things. And and out of my experience of different retreats, it's it's very it's a very nurturing and uh allowing uh uh atmosphere. It's it's not about uh succeeding or making things perfect, it's more about trying out, exploring, and s just see what comes out of this. Uh so that's a good starting point. I would I would also add that that in general uh wanting to wanting to write or wanting to create something, uh taking it seriously and then trying to do it uh regularly. I mean, like doing it for for maybe 15 minutes every day or something, or every day that is possible. Uh when it comes to songwriting, there are many fantastic uh uh books and and and and teachers, uh both in books and uh online, and and they they often talk about, for instance, there's a concept called morning pages, where you're supposed to to write something every every morning before you start with all your doings and your chores. Uh and I can't say that I really have succeeded so well in doing that, but I've done it a few times and it that that really uh yeah, that that's a really good good way, a good uh tip doing it like that. Just doing it regularly. It doesn't have to be so many hours or anything like that, but having contact with your creative side regularly. Excellent.

Leigh 51:30

No, I think what you said about you know that time on the retreat, you know, it's the it's not about being perfect, it's about exploring, it's about a curiosity, it's about all these things. And I I feel like that's why retreats work so well on the camino because they they're very similar.

Staffan 51:45

Yep, yeah, right.

Leigh 51:47

And uh I I imagine it just makes a Camino, it's kind of a Camino with steroids, you know, like it just makes a Camino even stronger because you're having these two uh symbiotic experiences that really go well together. Okay, so let's end with you you said earlier, I think, that you think you'll walk the Camino again, and maybe by retreat or maybe uh a Camino on its own. What would you say, you know, like now sitting here with me today, what's your best memory from that experience?

Staffan 52:24

There are there are a lot of good memories, but but to answer that question, I I guess there were some moments when we were were all of us or or more or less all of us together, like in the evenings when at some some of the albergues that we were staying at, uh they they were were um serving us dinner and we were eating together with with the owners of that albergue and and and and uh uh it was a very yeah, I mean people were also we were tired, I mean walking or or or working the whole day and and then getting together around the table. Uh there was some moments that was really great. Um I mean being in a group when the group is healthy and and and uh healthy in the psychological social way. Uh and everybody is is is uh uh open and supportive and and wants everybody to be in the group and and and uh that that that's really strong. That's that's that's that's that's strong memories definitely from from the Camino. It's it's nice to to be I mean it's different, it's difficult to compare things. I mean I I really appreciate also like we were talking about the day I was walking on my own, uh uh etc. But I think I think that's that's also the big thing to to to shift uh between that I think that's a good I I would say it's a good sign of uh a good group. Uh an group that allows you that a group allows you to be in the center of it and it allows you to go out if you want that and you're welcome back. I think that's kind of um uh uh a definition of what what makes a group healthy and good. I agree. You you can be in the middle and you're allowed to go out and you're welcome back.

Leigh 54:51

Yeah, I think that's the very definition of a Camino family on the Camino, right? You had the beauty, and my very first Camino also was with a group. And I think when you are with a group, you immediately have a Camino family.

Staffan 55:05

Yeah, yeah.

Leigh 55:06

Although that doesn't guarantee that everybody's gonna get along, right? But you know, you're gonna be able to do that.

Staffan 55:09

Oh, true, true, true, true.

Leigh 55:11

But let's say, let's hope most of the times it does. But if you don't already have that container of a ready-made group, it kind of naturally forms on the camino. And the beautiful thing about the camino, I think, is that we are all called to it to walk on our own. And there's this beautiful way of coming into group and going out of group and coming back. And I don't know, that doesn't seem to happen maybe as much in real life as it does on the Camino, or maybe we don't feel as welcome to come and go, right? And so there's this beautiful freedom on the Camino that I've always found. Um I'm glad you brought that up. Well, my last question for you is this you walked in October of 2024. Here we sit, just one month into 26. When you look at your life back then compared to today, how has Staffan the man changed? As well as the musician, singer, songwriter, that you would say, you know, that that experience I had on retreat on a Camino changed me in these ways. Would would there be anything that you would say?

Staffan 56:31

Yeah, that's a big that's a big question. I I think first I I think that there's a reason why I chose to go on this retreat and go on the Camino at that point of of life. There was something I I wanted. I think I was kinda ready for it. And I've it's something it's connected to something about being more clear of of of um um what's the word for it to to to value to value life and being thankful for what you got. I think that's for me at least and something that I've talked a lot with my wife about also. I mean we I'm I'm I just turned 63 yesterday and and my wife is Oh, happy birthday! Thank you. And my wife is two years younger, and and and our kids have moved away, and and this theme of of of okay, we we're older now and and and life is not gonna go on forever. Uh but it also it it's also helpful to realize that to really appreciate what what what we have right now. And I I think that that when you're asking what I what what the this Camino pilgrim walk meant for me, I yeah, I I it was it was one more opportunity to really get in contact with that and to dwell upon what's important, what's important here in life Yeah, it's so easy to lose sight of it in our daily life, isn't it? So much going on, so much and and but to do a thing like that is the stepping out of and that's and then you can you can get a new perspective or sharpen your perspective, I guess. Yeah.

Leigh 58:55

And I love the simplicity that the biggest thing you took away from it is gratitude.

Staffan 59:02

Yeah, yeah. But it's it's important. Yeah, gratitude and and and and uh being thankful for for what you got. I mean we we can still try to get more or go further in our lives, but but but but also look at but I got all this and I've had this life. It's it's it's fantastic.

Leigh 59:31

Well, I don't think we can top that that answer. I Okay. I love that, and I've loved having this opportunity to get to know you better. And I so appreciate you coming on here and talking about all these different experiences you had on the Camino. Thank you for being so willing to send me the messages on your Camino. Um it's it's inspired me to think about other ways that I can do this with future pilgrims as well as when I go and walk to talk about the things that happened. And um, yeah, thank you for all your vulnerability and and sharing today. I I really appreciate it.

Staffan 1:00:09

And now that you now that you mentioned the these messages, I I just I just came to think that that it it it I would say that it it uh it did add to the experience of being to the Camino because when when we were supposed to send these messages to you, it was uh I mean it took a moment of reflection. Okay, so what shall I I I I talk to Leigh about now then? Okay, what what what's what's been important today? What what how can I express myself around this? So so thanks for for for letting me for letting us do that. It was it just it added to the experience, really.

Leigh 1:00:52

Oh that's so cool to know. Thank you for coming to the show today.

Staffan 1:00:56

Thank you for having me. It's been a great, great pleasure to talk to you. Thank you.

Leigh 1:01:04

Wow, what an interview, huh? Well, that's a wrap, except stay on. Okay, so here are the three songs in the order that they are played. First is Hearts on the Table with Felix Peirota and Staffan. The second one is Dear Lester with Kristina Jacobsen and Staffan. And the last one is Dance of Forgiveness by Jane Corns and Staffan Wester. So I hope you enjoy hearing the songs. Please be sure to come back next week as my next interviews with another person who walked with Kristina, and that is Felix himself from Hearts on the Table. So we'll see you next time. Ciao pilgrims.

Felix 1:02:08

Come on, let's do it. Love a coffee or a glass of wine when you walk in through that door. What do you see through? What have a feel?

Staffan 1:02:36

It's a good dead. My love is dead. What a heart is dead. She's done my dead heart on the table. That's just fine.

Felix 1:03:50

Well, I have no one. That's the way love goes. I guess you gotta hold on what you really know.

Staffan 1:04:02

My cup there.

Felix 1:04:39

I didn't see it coming. Just me and my wife in that old house. And it all got quiet. Made me kind of scared. What if I find no longer be there?

Staffan 1:05:00

I have no way to win the boat. Do what you know. I got it.

Felix 1:05:14

Let's have five.

Staffan 1:05:20

Let's stop five. Moment for our thoughts to it twice. That's just fine. For you love me. For you me. For me. For you. For you. You mean for you me. For you. This letter. Do you remember me at all? I know I never called. I was new town. You were with chairback. You offered me a hell. It's gentle old remain. Hearken love attendant. Shaking everybody's head. Smiling, while in pain. Silence was your name. I won't forget those words. When you took me to your ranch, asking about the van gave me a place to land. Last time I saw you then. We should send yard came. Too caught up to shake the shade, hiding in my own pain. You gifted me from feed and desert ground permission to make a home you never came a ground. I won't forget those words used. Now I am ready to lower the drawbridge forever. Can we talk? Can we walk? Can I explain? I tasted upon your skin that first time we met Sweet believing the feeling could last. How did it happen? This ungracious fall into darkness. Was it you? Was it me? Was it us? I played my part. I wasn't always fair. Wasn't always fair. Now I see all that we have, all of the love we made, all of the dues you pay in service to me. Never intending to cause them such pain. Can you imagine the burden on such tiny shoulders? Tell me how tell me why, tell me again I played my part. I wasn't always there, wasn't always there. Now I see all that we had all of the love we share, all of those dues you pay in service to me. Will we dance again? Will we still be friends? Come take home.

Felix 1:14:22

I played my part, but I wasn't always there, wasn't always there.

Staffan 1:14:34

Now I see all that we have all the love we made, all those dues you pay in service to me.